. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/I8JL2O5S0vkJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e89a8fb20276766ede04d10fc8bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:56 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2012 7:23:45 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at= 8:22 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:28 AM, la gleki <= span dir=3D"ltr"><gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
If you think of x2 as an = object (which it can be), you will see that cpedu is actually in the lebna/= cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc.... family. =A0The object changing ha= nds being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot being the other person involved i= n the transaction. =A0It's actually pikci which is the minde family.

Yes, that's what bothers me.
Why do we have
{se ckire} being the addressee but
{te ciksi} being the addressee.

It's very ha= rd to remember, non-intuitive etc.

You'd have to ask the people who came up wi= th the definitions in the first place, but I doubt they could answer you, e= ither. i doubt any intention was payed to regularity among "families&q= uot; of gismu, especially considering how many gismu have irregular places = within their family. (I don't recall the exact one, but I believe the f= irst irregular gismu I came across was one of the metric measurements, mass= , maybe?)

It is my hope that at some very near futu= re point this irregularity issue if addressed and fixed. Since it's alw= ays with the least used places, I don't believe making the irregular gi= smu regular would have much of an impact on historical works.

It won't be that eas= y.

{mi cpedu do lo nu dunda lo jdini} is na smudra althoug= h will for sure be perfectly understood by everyone. You can't confuse = abstractions with objects.
Just as {mi pikci do lo nu dunda lo jdini} is smudra.

Howe= ver, such playing with places breaks the meaning of {se cpedu}. We'll h= ave to avoid sumti-raising all the time in order to avoid ambiguity in it&#= 39;s=A0worst sense of polysemy (you will never know whether your lojbo frie= nd has a habit of changing place structure or not).

Not all of the irregular gismu have that same problem= . Obviously some are more difficult to fix than others.
=A0

The only reasonable two alternative solutions would be=A0

1. Invent new gismu with the new place structure and slowly forget= old ones (lojbanic corpus of texts can be automatically converted)
2. S= plit individual places into separate gismu (like "under conditions&quo= t; is to be replaced by {va'o}) and invent new gismu for those fragment= s of older gismu. Or just ignore superfluous places whenever possible (if &= quot;by standard" is the last place, ignore it. If not invent a new gi= smu to replace the old one).

Well, enough herecy for today. Where is an appropriate quote from our s= hepherd?

2010.II.25 <rlpowell> Broca: To expand on my earlier comment about conservat= ism and you and stuff, I want Lojbanists to be active in moving the languag= e towards awesome and away from things they hate. =A0I don't want to th= row out the language we have, by any means (if I wanted that, I'd just = go make a new one). =A0I want excellent Lojbanists like you to never again = have to say "I hate that aspect of the language; it's dumb. =A0But= I support it anyways." =A0I think ...

By the way, who is Broca?

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

cpedu -=A0x1 requests/asks= /petitions/solicits for x2 of/from x3 in manner/form x4.
minde -=A0x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/state= ) to happen; x3 is commanded to occur.

Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to = each other they differ in the order of arguments.
Is it just a hi= storical quirk?

I guess this is the "error&qu= ot; of {cpedu} cuz other similar gismu follow the structure of {minde}.

fraxu -=A0x1 forgives x2 for event/state/activit= y x3.

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.=

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo = pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side= ! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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