Received: from mail-vb0-f58.google.com ([209.85.212.58]:55933)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDA4JGNARYDBBRNJZODAKGQEHPOQGKA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1Tlc4A-0002JG-3W; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:38 -0800
Received: by mail-vb0-f58.google.com with SMTP id fa15sf1581519vbb.23
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:10 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=f+67txFNL2d1P4Es/Jfx2qOJufeo938G7DfgVUAiqBw=;
        b=ovk9Z7PA69+0UuUZkPb5MC7AY17XXP52yrwf2ILbfvlbdlpUKt9ofNEez9hBzPWNl9
         Uf3wGX1AZolAiuRx5T7Ny/jgKfdNV345aNGYCGAVAuRbxwRBpbLW6iV1cOw9m1mk6kUD
         Qzbwu3siGfBTLJWC5FtoX4y6mrivBErwhXWdwf/MeszId+kqaO1zz/kIWS0I+482Gg6j
         gYih1J1Xj7bftuybZqgZrYmh2w8effJnvObacseBZH8rz9uUYi/rtqhNbUgi4Ag3b2q8
         Bk7DL5gjWDbTXq/me4wRlwikgDwEqL+5el+pB2DArOXPCgSMK6Sr2wdAJI/7q0+8ctKe
         7Eng==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=f+67txFNL2d1P4Es/Jfx2qOJufeo938G7DfgVUAiqBw=;
        b=fMvWEKOyzK+l++YMoVVJ0wRodURosbPqhSM5GNhl1ChAu0b/22mzj0k/ZO08SbCw47
         QY+rBHqupZT7ZNoNbaSignpkbD9CebUiHXDzJE5t9ZXJhAGzdE2cJgwtSGFqRHfgvriG
         N/blvY2UbiFrA0d7NWIcjEwVsM4Jz10oM8wXzGrW/u7AMdD+Ura7AUjNi7SQdseAhvGm
         +15fnEpji7BmOjHAIAsSHqV0MHtSL5NQ6Rxmz32zRHfKuNAB8qjId9+3LS3hiQsxRv/U
         X+t8my0RkccR3uVejTsu05CODJ2qavg56BtTt8GH95hivU39vOamdxXficB1L587KdR2
         zU/g==
X-Received: by 10.50.179.103 with SMTP id df7mr1336709igc.16.1355994310113;
        Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:10 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.197.225 with SMTP id ix1ls2131973igc.44.gmail; Thu, 20 Dec
 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.50.5.210 with SMTP id u18mr7969890igu.4.1355994309486;
        Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.50.5.210 with SMTP id u18mr7969889igu.4.1355994309467;
        Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ob0-f179.google.com (mail-ob0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wu4si1350825igb.3.2012.12.20.01.05.09
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179;
Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id x4so2971019obh.24
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.60.32.234 with SMTP id m10mr7285665oei.7.1355994309313; Thu,
 20 Dec 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:05:09 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAPAJj9LVDPPWYETT2uFVU4psNDn6n=BcAWtxQv5cG8rWCTe8Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPAJj9LVDPPWYETT2uFVU4psNDn6n=BcAWtxQv5cG8rWCTe8Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:05:09 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj0NsZiQfFSy8rHsUw71Wpx=9zdW68mZdfJRy+1m+3=-fw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Had Obama used KOhA...
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1eff21fc58304d14507bf
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--e89a8fb1eff21fc58304d14507bf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:48 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:

> coi lo jibni be lo fanmo be li 2012
>
> Ranked second in Politifact's "Lie of the Year" is a Mitt Romney campaign
> video, which quote-mined Obama as saying:
>
> "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that
> happen."
>
> The video aimed to make it appear as though Obama was attributing success
> to the government and not to the people. The quote's actual context:
>
> "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. Ther=
e
> was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create thi=
s
> unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.
> Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you=92ve got a business, you
> didn=92t build that. Somebody else made that happen."
>
> What he meant by "that" that you didn't build, then, would be "roads and
> bridges". The pro-noun however *can* technically refer to the business th=
at
> you've got as well, and the Romney campaign (let alone Fox News) took thi=
s
> anaphoric ambiguity to their advantage.
>
> Had the presidential race taken place in Lojbanistan, would such
> quote-mining have been possible? Which KOhA would Obama have used for
> "that"?
>
> mu'o
>

I couldn't just guess which pro-sumti he'd use if he'd been speaking in
Lojban, so I decided to take a crack at translating it and figure it out
that way. Of course, this still wouldn't likely be what he'd have said,
unless of course I was his speech writer.

My translation is a bit "Ugh" in my opinion, mainly because I was trying to
keep the sentiment (not the exact words, mind you, but the ideas and the
order in which they are presented), which made the third sentence
especially clunky in my eyes. I'm certain, if I cared enough to bother,
that I could render a more supple translation, but I think suffices:

{
.i ganai do pu snada gi ca lo pu mokca ku da sidju do .i lo balctu pu pagbu
lo do nunji'e

.i de pu sidju fi lonu zbasu le ka na krici kei merko ciste be fi'o ponse
ma'a be'o poi gaurka'e lonu do snada

.i di pu zivle fi lo dargu .e lo cripu .i ganai do ponse lo kagni gi do na
zbasu lo te go'i

.i su'o drata be do prenu pu gasnu lo nu zbasu
}

BTW, in this translation, the first "that" is translated with {lo te go'i},
and the second with {zo'e} (elided).
--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


--e89a8fb1eff21fc58304d14507bf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:48 AM, tijlan <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jbotijlan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jbo=
tijlan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>coi lo jibni be lo fanmo be li 2012<br><br>Ranked sec=
ond in Politifact&#39;s &quot;Lie of the Year&quot; is a Mitt Romney campai=
gn video, which quote-mined Obama as saying:<br><br>&quot;If you&#39;ve got=
 a business, you didn&#39;t build that. Somebody else made that happen.&quo=
t;<br>




<br>The video aimed to make it appear as though Obama was attributing succe=
ss to the government and not to the people. The quote&#39;s actual context:=
<br><br>&quot;If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some=
 help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to=
 create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to =
thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you=92ve got a business,=
 you didn=92t build that. Somebody else made that happen.&quot;<br>




<br>What he meant by &quot;that&quot; that you didn&#39;t build, then, woul=
d be &quot;roads and bridges&quot;. The pro-noun however *can* technically =
refer to the business that you&#39;ve got as well, and the Romney campaign =
(let alone Fox News) took this anaphoric ambiguity to their advantage.<br>


<br></div><div>Had the presidential race taken place in Lojbanistan, would =
such quote-mining have been possible? Which KOhA would Obama have used for =
&quot;that&quot;?<br><br></div><div>mu&#39;o<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font co=
lor=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I couldn&#39;t just guess w=
hich pro-sumti he&#39;d use if he&#39;d been speaking in Lojban, so I decid=
ed to take a crack at translating it and figure it out that way. Of course,=
 this still wouldn&#39;t likely be what he&#39;d have said, unless of cours=
e I was his speech writer.<br>
<br></div></div>My translation is a bit &quot;Ugh&quot; in my opinion, main=
ly because I was trying to keep the sentiment (not the exact words, mind yo=
u, but the ideas and the order in which they are presented), which made the=
 third sentence especially clunky in my eyes. I&#39;m certain, if I cared e=
nough to bother, that I could render a more supple translation, but I think=
 suffices:<br>
<br>{<br>.i ganai do pu snada gi ca lo pu mokca ku da sidju do .i lo balctu=
 pu pagbu lo do nunji&#39;e<br><br>.i de pu sidju fi lonu zbasu le ka na kr=
ici kei merko ciste be fi&#39;o ponse ma&#39;a be&#39;o poi gaurka&#39;e lo=
nu do snada<br>
<br>.i di pu zivle fi lo dargu .e lo cripu .i ganai do ponse lo kagni gi do=
 na zbasu lo te go&#39;i<br><br>.i su&#39;o drata be do prenu pu gasnu lo n=
u zbasu<br clear=3D"all">}<br><br>BTW, in this translation, the first &quot=
;that&quot; is translated with {lo te go&#39;i}, and the second with {zo&#3=
9;e} (elided).<br>
-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be=
 denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, =
I am your father. :D )<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--e89a8fb1eff21fc58304d14507bf--