Received: from mail-ie0-f191.google.com ([209.85.223.191]:54880) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tlopp-000788-Bm; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:43:52 -0800 Received: by mail-ie0-f191.google.com with SMTP id c13sf1892108ieb.18 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:x-received :received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7K6yObWvOWbe6nvwOGoMQJRcWlbBzr5M7gsDDc8SIk8=; b=DIaLkIpHWfR5krqROHyHyiGAHmKPCbiZbIwxwnb0RBxRxGjX/Ig3AQsdMYBF924Jn7 Yh7KXZJni4QuhzLUpE48WFQH4WPRDSqYXA5a/9bu+hQOz7mSkQRHU/Nt75Pw7rnv52Jv L9HKBzP51DJCEI9kSbfr3Aq9kW7BuUqhkDy6rL9ecnkqUy6MmUPjHIZ3TyzvtaOKqGPf Z6ZIlLuD6VfGLiY37O/osAz29x11mv2VAcX9y+E9eQ5X+A7u70E4yMzNvpdVesBBB9ug XDc2L2S8evPNdvX9byK+gpx6VkQlhe3Egnu69S/pGvNFksaBQglaCZaaejw36AJIkWyR 8IXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:x-received :received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7K6yObWvOWbe6nvwOGoMQJRcWlbBzr5M7gsDDc8SIk8=; b=jRRuHaXrElpQQFxEf3AT0QsZQg0WlK/LH7AQbHYtzRxoTITn8Bq+D0n1Jrps8Rjkdu ZCCiBNbQ3XHznDTMnHAxqIr+ZzWAFtZfQhdMC1gHdZvyhcOic1mxroq4wZyiVkefqp3i xo70hoJ90hzR801vn1SZyT4NdRFPhwhez4Sx3KKh6OjQhSUD7RincAkl4VDp7TfSphA6 GhVJDaKZL+b/eu99GIxqWBD5nCRVnIS61UefTjRxplfj/ZYB7PS4qmvBIZHIkugvqPkR mdMS18iarYulANZ8Bj65P3qfdOspb0Wr2fLyaZaUH7fyfpvFLcgq/fM6qZxtT9fComkM polg== X-Received: by 10.49.24.14 with SMTP id q14mr1651590qef.17.1356043397898; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.35.38 with SMTP id e6ls1634993qej.49.gmail; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:43:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.224.218.2 with SMTP id ho2mr5370962qab.8.1356043396494; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.0.141 with SMTP id 13msqab; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.88.7 with SMTP id bc7mr2967155veb.40.1355946959282; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.88.7 with SMTP id bc7mr2967154veb.40.1355946959257; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d17si1995358vdt.1.2012.12.19.11.55.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.171; Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id n11so2786842vch.2 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.107.5 with SMTP id z5mr10670508vco.22.1355946959071; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.13.197 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:55:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7b7faaa6-6b15-4bde-ada9-d37e2d99ce18@googlegroups.com> <275c5760-c5b6-4a1b-b017-e4951c6c5201@googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Letters simulation by lojban vision! From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c7bd4d4685704d13a0023 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d043c7bd4d4685704d13a0023 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Indeed, as a speaker of English you already know the vast majority of the sounds. Here are the issues that I know of that an English speaker might encounter: Your vowels are probably not perfect. Nonetheless, Lojban has very few vowels, so this probably will not be a practical problem. {x} is very foreign. Even after learning how to make it on its own, getting used to clusters with it is difficult. {j} is a little bit foreign, but really not that hard to get used to, especially if you can internalize that our "j" is {dj}. Your {r}, if it is an approximant, as is usually the case for American English speakers, will probably be a problem. On its own it's fine, the problem is in clusters. For example {tr} can turn into {tcr} and {dr} can turn into {djr} if {r} is an approximant. Several of the clusters are foreign, for example {ml}, {zd}, {jb}, etc. Buffer vowels can help with this. Otherwise Lojban doesn't sound that much different from English, which means you really don't need to know anything about IPA to learn it. mu'o mi'e la latro'a On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Adam Chevalier wrote: > >> The IPA is confusing and most people looking at it won't know how to read >> it. >> However, I do not advocate the creation of another standard notation. >> Either way, its one more thing someone must learn before learning lojban. >> > > You don't need to know the IPA to learn Lojban. > > >> The simpler the learning of lojban is the better. >> >> As it stands, prospective jbopre must obtain some sense of predicate >> logic before lojban makes any sense (and the current learning materials >> make no effort to help people who do not have a background in math or CS to >> learn these concepts). >> >> >> On Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:52:06 AM UTC-6, aionys wrote: >> >>> Again. Isn't that what the IPA is for? >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 3:20 AM, la ki'es-di'es wrote: >>> >>>> Greeting, >>>> >>>> I was very busy last period... >>>> >>>> In fact I discussed the subject much but there is some difference and a >>>> lot of benefits. >>>> >>>> I send previously file about that but may need some improvement. >>>> >>>> We must realizes this fact, that there is two type of knowledge: >>>> >>>> (1) depened on the person itself can improve by intelligence exercises, >>>> and be for accidental events and its rules attempet to deal an >>>> infinity random events almost. >>>> (2) depened on people expereince in life you can't obtain it by >>>> yourself you will learn that continiously from others and we called it the >>>> wisdom and usualy attempt to take all probabilities. >>>> >>>> Every one have a lot to talk and every thing extend to infinity. >>>> >>>> e.g: may R italian is the inverse of r english but french r is the >>>> inverse of like A in arabic word Ali, and so on we should take all >>>> probabilities. >>>> >>>> la'o mu''ymyd-nuuR byRuk >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >>>> msg/lojban/-/HeXNJJZv8ToJ >>>> . >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/lojban?hl=en . >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/RlFl5_3TiF8J. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d043c7bd4d4685704d13a0023 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed, as a speaker of English you already know the vast majority of the s= ounds. Here are the issues that I know of that an English speaker might enc= ounter:
Your vowels are probably not perfect. Nonetheless, Lojban has ve= ry few vowels, so this probably will not be a practical problem.
{x} is very foreign. Even after learning how to make it on its own, getting= used to clusters with it is difficult.
{j} is a little bit foreign, but= really not that hard to get used to, especially if you can internalize tha= t our "j" is {dj}.
Your {r}, if it is an approximant, as is usually the case for American Engl= ish speakers, will probably be a problem. On its own it's fine, the pro= blem is in clusters. For example {tr} can turn into {tcr} and {dr} can turn= into {djr} if {r} is an approximant.
Several of the clusters are foreign, for example {ml}, {zd}, {jb}, etc. Buf= fer vowels can help with this.

Otherwise Lojban doesn't sound th= at much different from English, which means you really don't need to kn= ow anything about IPA to learn it.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On W= ed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Adam Chevalier <chevalieradam2@gm= ail.com> wrote:
The IPA is confusing and most people looking at it won't know how to re= ad it.
However, I do not advocate the creation of another standard nota= tion. Either way, its one more thing someone must learn before learning loj= ban.

You don't need to know the IPA to learn Loj= ban.
=A0
The simpler the learning of lojban is the better.

As it stands, prospective jbopre must obtain some sense= of predicate logic before lojban makes any sense (and the current learning= materials make no effort to help people who do not have a background in ma= th or CS to learn these concepts).


On Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:52:06 AM UTC-6, aionys wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Again. Isn't that what the = IPA is for?

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 3:20 AM, = la ki'es-di'es <buro...@yahoo.co.uk>= wrote:
Greeting,
=A0
I was very busy last period...
=A0
In fact I discussed the subject much but there is some difference and = a lot of benefits.
=A0
I send previously file about that but may need some improvement.
=A0
We must realizes this=A0fact, th= at there is two type of knowledge:
=A0
(1) depened on the person itself can improve by intelligence exercises= , and be for accidental events and its rules attempet=A0to dea= l an infinity random events almost.
(2) depened on people expereince in life you can't obtain it by yo= urself you will learn that continiously from others and we called it the wi= sdom and usualy attempt to take all probabilities.
=A0
Every one have a lot to talk and every thing extend to infinity.
=A0
e.g: may R italian=A0is the inverse of r english but=A0french r=A0is t= he inverse of like A in arabic word Ali, and so on we should take all proba= bilities.
=A0
la'o mu''ymyd-nuuR byRuk

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/HeXNJJZv8ToJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@google= groups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/RlFl5_3TiF8J.

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

= .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d043c7bd4d4685704d13a0023--