Received: from mail-qc0-f184.google.com ([209.85.216.184]:56343) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TnBTp-0004Oe-46; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:26 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f184.google.com with SMTP id p9sf3860341qcr.11 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=tcSO3OeUEMjfC16jOKldlzrP6p+hWbp4SBOvohsNWwQ=; b=TagOb35C5/UuBxx8BIb0tyS8TqkV5BkxEqGeTau1jweV73ipxGIeyLDDh4tTdiCWjc QiZIUKUpqEa3H7Iu2O4YAxRpZxt3GUcrVJmcE4c838nyHA1D6hEXT+sSeRjTQ4aGhkvc fz9BUdUK3JKky8zoXD6BYs2pGTxQhrJwb2TY7rMyphR+NRcGJMHFYnnIJ89FJtHyIro/ vO0BFiAGiwJBqi+qkggX3x6hasJNevdvMS2YD7uKfeOFybCUplyeFtLNXvVsoLVhfTin mTg62LOeu4on9t9xdh1PZOILyf/XTrbWzzxt83XddJswc25HyS+su8kxC4xSnLqgmzgq IVDQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=tcSO3OeUEMjfC16jOKldlzrP6p+hWbp4SBOvohsNWwQ=; b=LJtUu1OBftQQU/UkOHrIFLSOgpsAAPIsTy+VvdeGQ9aOfMz3moydGUyNRh/WMnlIcQ 7tF9Rhc6AcHqlc4aSJ39BjEjIdmSggcvy/YqNylEro3p/iWiBL8XWo8Cf4kwJg+1kjUu oVG5GJhK7iPr1C8yAjajhLpCuaX8iuQUXoyiM8oxK/8OnJpNbOr3p6Q7mYf4TNsWRzd1 oiaE+1AIWuuXAmsatKQKuRL9fja8Qu26GHif3nLodS5g4KQRa78c0WCO8BOvjoSHpIrc 50PRc5y0jwEgHva+UKYuFByfHIO/1C9y6LzEyFdrdKJgvv0TpI+a+NT6kbtOfufgKZMJ pEKQ== X-Received: by 10.49.75.195 with SMTP id e3mr3309991qew.24.1356368774647; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.82.112 with SMTP id h16ls3013701qey.0.gmail; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.52.26.84 with SMTP id j20mr8896659vdg.5.1356368773278; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.52.26.84 with SMTP id j20mr8896658vdg.5.1356368773216; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f179.google.com (mail-vc0-f179.google.com [209.85.220.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d17si6442509vdt.1.2012.12.24.09.06.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.179; Received: by mail-vc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id p1so7716500vcq.10 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.156.67 with SMTP id wc3mr29647145vdb.19.1356368773089; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.65.233 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:05:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <11ecfede-d731-44b8-b71e-8aa427be0544@googlegroups.com> References: <11ecfede-d731-44b8-b71e-8aa427be0544@googlegroups.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:05:53 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Comments inside quotations. {lu ... [sei ...se'u] ... li'u}. No solution? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53aece2e787b504d19c3672 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec53aece2e787b504d19c3672 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 24 December 2012 11:54, la gleki wrote: > {sei ... se'u} inside {lu ...li'u} must be a part of the quote however > xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes split into > several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wrong. > IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings. > > 1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki ~= .ui}) > 2. As an alternative to moving the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do > melbi sei mi jinvi}={mi jinvi lo du'u do melbi}) > 3. To translate partitioned quotations. > All of these meanings are actually the same. In every case, it's "meaning #2". {.i do melbi sei mi cusku} -> {.i mi cusku lo se du'u do melbi} {.i ui do cinba mi} -> {.i sei mi gleki do cinba mi} -> {.i mi gleki lo nu do cinba mi} Personally, I disapprove of sei-within-lu for partitioned quotes, for the simple reason that one can't unambiguously determine whether the sei-clause is actually spoken, unless {sa'a} is used (which it usually isn't). > > Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning of {sei}. And > now here is my solution for the third meaning. > > Replacing any meanings of sei with another word is unnecessary because {sei} only really has one meaning. > Proposal. > The same FA two times in a bridi should mean {je} according i.e. > {fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}={mi pu viska lo barda je gerku}. > > This system seems inconsistent: a sumti operation, namely the use of FA, causes a selbri effect. > Needless to say that "it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} > rather than {ko'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun > phrases with adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban. > > Now such proposal allows us to express divided quotations > > xorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo > nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables) > gleki's solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica > lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables) > > As I mentioned above, where's the {je} ? What selbri is it connecting? Furthermore, if double-FA should have some connective implication, it should certainly not be a logical connective. I propose something far more vague, like {ju'e}. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec53aece2e787b504d19c3672 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24 December 2012 11:54, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
{sei ... se'u} inside =A0{lu ...li'u} must be a part = of the quote however xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate= quotes split into several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks th= at this is wrong.
IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings.

1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki= ~=3D .ui})
2. As an alternative to moving= the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do melbi sei mi jinvi}=3D{mi jinvi = lo du'u do melbi})
3. To translate partitioned quotations.

All of these meanings are actually the same.= In every case, it's "meaning #2".
{.i do melbi sei mi cusku} -> {.i mi cusku lo se du'u do melbi}=
{.i ui do cinba mi} -> {.i sei mi gleki do cinba mi} -> {.= i mi gleki lo nu do cinba mi}

Personally, I disapp= rove of sei-within-lu for partitioned quotes, for the simple reason that on= e can't unambiguously determine whether the sei-clause is actually spok= en, unless {sa'a} is used (which it usually isn't).
=A0

Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning = of {sei}. And now here is my solution for the third meaning.<= /div>


Repl= acing any meanings of sei with another word is unnecessary because {sei} on= ly really has one meaning.
=A0
Proposal.
The same FA two times i= n a bridi should mean {je} according i.e.
{fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}=3D{mi pu viska lo ba= rda je gerku}.


This system seems inco= nsistent: a sumti operation, namely the use of FA, causes a selbri effect.<= /div>
=A0
Needless to say that "= it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} rather than {k= o'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun phrases w= ith adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban.

Now such proposal allow= s us to express divided quotations

xorxe's solution: {= lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li&#= 39;u} (25 syllables)
gleki's solution: =A0{lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la= alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables)


As I mentioned =A0above, whe= re's the {je} ? What selbri is it connecting? Furthermore, if double-FA= should have some connective implication, it should certainly not be a logi= cal connective. I propose something far more vague, like {ju'e}.
=A0
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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