Received: from mail-da0-f62.google.com ([209.85.210.62]:56445) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TnC2p-0004cR-TR; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:42:37 -0800 Received: by mail-da0-f62.google.com with SMTP id n15sf3993554dad.27 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:42:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zUQ3dvVX2XID3qNShVr5+Um6wmaT5eiIs2PBXH0l6hY=; b=cb0qLW/+P9U/NZYldY0MeN3T8bWHm81wK4WUrsx/NMn14oBGkZDp6X31qFB+e+oYyT 3c95CSIelbpW5q86BOVetNnF9xEBbHnzEXzvmUN7xzs0v1Kzv0eX2Ip4mmtTMgIAntdh Zy06VU0V7jljhlCvwa0B3buSv6UKuYETwznm9Gs4vPRteE10+Su0NXbSyd80FdaiUEOx us0VUIp4cK+krOO8wli5KyK5IrRDZ3Lw4UqcbsksJLZkPaTmFi+qr1SCtPnE6yXVsJr8 uaxCKi7+jGUyadtTXKGHXJNhSpl1+U29Dney8i5/h8aMrz34brTV9TIlgBvkvNS+yhQY t47Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zUQ3dvVX2XID3qNShVr5+Um6wmaT5eiIs2PBXH0l6hY=; b=csSD//WgoKKhq6XParTSMSjEOZJLBvT3Tg0FdAKON8cLWMBsuUc3wA6jCW5ZhjinmL zgos7wJ4BW/ILSh4ZpL/LCD0Gg/92zF7/Konx/GlU1fClEKuW4bWjGPIFhB5tZ3U7QOT Uw+b+msG8IpL/ycXgmtb98yJWcSt8389Kik/1S29O0MMpPkfaS+gAIFtJEtaUraaAqH9 oeKKmiH14V9crQTm7v3XhoFbKnLMxng5RmGyPpq+XJeGYCEcV/RtmSXL4dI3Tfw8TOwZ +gmKzyguYjAjW7XUvi86qkyH/H6DOpOfee0FhLUsUHKyg1t9tSzNBBm7Yp0wnSexn6X6 JALw== X-Received: by 10.49.35.77 with SMTP id f13mr3293676qej.4.1356370945346; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:42:25 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.48.48 with SMTP id i16ls2511979qen.89.gmail; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.38.194 with SMTP id i2mr3290215qek.30.1356370943906; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <11ecfede-d731-44b8-b71e-8aa427be0544@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Comments inside quotations. {lu ... [sei ...se'u] ... li'u}. No solution? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_231_28672161.1356370943494" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_231_28672161.1356370943494 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, December 24, 2012 9:05:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: > > On 24 December 2012 11:54, la gleki >wrote: > >> {sei ... se'u} inside {lu ...li'u} must be a part of the quote however >> xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes split into >> several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wrong. >> IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings. >> >> 1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki ~= .ui}) >> 2. As an alternative to moving the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do >> melbi sei mi jinvi}={mi jinvi lo du'u do melbi}) >> 3. To translate partitioned quotations. >> > > All of these meanings are actually the same. In every case, it's "meaning > #2". > {.i do melbi sei mi cusku} -> {.i mi cusku lo se du'u do melbi} > {.i ui do cinba mi} -> {.i sei mi gleki do cinba mi} -> {.i mi gleki lo nu > do cinba mi} > > Personally, I disapprove of sei-within-lu for partitioned quotes, for the > simple reason that one can't unambiguously determine whether the sei-clause > is actually spoken, unless {sa'a} is used (which it usually isn't). > > >> >> Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning of {sei}. >> And now here is my solution for the third meaning. >> >> > Replacing any meanings of sei with another word is unnecessary because > {sei} only really has one meaning. > How can you distinguish between {do cusku lu do klama mi li'u} and {do cusku lo nu do klama mi} using {sei}? > >> Proposal. >> The same FA two times in a bridi should mean {je} according i.e. >> {fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}={mi pu viska lo barda je gerku}. >> >> > This system seems inconsistent: a sumti operation, namely the use of FA, > causes a selbri effect. > > >> Needless to say that "it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} >> rather than {ko'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun >> phrases with adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban. >> >> Now such proposal allows us to express divided quotations >> >> xorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo >> nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables) >> gleki's solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica >> lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables) >> >> > As I mentioned above, where's the {je} ? What selbri is it connecting? > Oh sorry. The rule is {li'u je lu} annihilates itself. The order is important. {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} => {fa lu ko klama mi li'u fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u se cusku la alis} => {fa lu ko klama mi [li'u fa lu] i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u se cusku la alis} => {lu ko klama mi i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u se cusku la alis} Furthermore, if double-FA should have some connective implication, it > should certainly not be a logical connective. I propose something far more > vague, like {ju'e}. > > .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/3nCYou4bYYgJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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On Monday, December 24, 2012 9:05:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:On 24 December 2012 11:54, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
{sei ... se'u} inside  {lu ...li'u} must be a part of th= e quote however xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes s= plit into several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wr= ong.
IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings.

1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki= ~=3D .ui})
2. As an alternative to moving= the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do melbi sei mi jinvi}=3D{mi jinvi = lo du'u do melbi})
3. To translate partitioned quotations.

All of these meanings are actually the same.= In every case, it's "meaning #2".
{.i do melbi sei mi cusku} -> {.i mi cusku lo se du'u do melbi}
{.i ui do cinba mi} -> {.i sei mi gleki do cinba mi} -> {.i mi= gleki lo nu do cinba mi}

Personally, I disapprove= of sei-within-lu for partitioned quotes, for the simple reason that one ca= n't unambiguously determine whether the sei-clause is actually spoken, unle= ss {sa'a} is used (which it usually isn't).
 

Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning = of {sei}. And now here is my solution for the third meaning.<= /div>


Repl= acing any meanings of sei with another word is unnecessary because {sei} on= ly really has one meaning.

How = can you distinguish between

{do cusku lu do klama = mi li'u}
and  
{do cusku lo nu do klama mi}
<= div>using {sei}?

 
Proposal.
The same FA two times i= n a bridi should mean {je} according i.e.
{fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}=3D{mi pu viska lo ba= rda je gerku}.


This system seems inco= nsistent: a sumti operation, namely the use of FA, causes a selbri effect.<= /div>
 
Needless to say that "it's = a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} rather than {ko'a barda gerku} a= s natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun phrases with adjectives are not= necessary in a logical style of lojban.

Now such proposal allow= s us to express divided quotations

xorxe's solution: {lu k= o klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 sy= llables)
gleki's solution:  {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis= fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables)


As I mentioned  above, = where's the {je} ? What selbri is it connecting?

Oh sorry. The rule  is {li'u je lu} annihilates itse= lf. The order is important.

{lu ko klama mi li'u se = cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} =3D>
{fa lu ko klama mi li'u fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u se cusku = la alis} =3D>
{fa lu ko klama mi [li'u fa lu= ] i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u se cusku la alis} =3D>
{lu ko klama mi i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u se cusku la alis}
=


=
Furthermore, if double-FA should have some= connective implication, it should certainly not be a logical connective. I= propose something far more vague, like {ju'e}.
 
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

--
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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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