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Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:58:05 +0100
From: v4hn <me@v4hn.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
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On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 07:04:04PM +0100, selpa'i wrote:
> {lo} by itself doesn't refer to a specific apple, but me wanting a
> specific one doesn't make {lo} false. It's an important distinction,

{.ue mi nelci di'u .ije ju'o mi tugni}

> which, I admit, I didn't see as clearly then (in fact some of what I
> said in this thread doesn't seem quite right now in retrospect, and
> I certainly didn't express myself well!). However, as things stand,
> what I said above is true, {lo} is not specific, but you might very
> well have a specific apple in mind (without making {lo plise}
> incorrect). It's just not conveyed by {lo}, and if context isn't
> strong enough, some relative clause that clarifies the intended
> referent will be needed e.g. {lo plise poi pritu traji} or similar.
>=20
> {le} will give you a specific apple (though the listener still has
> no idea which one), but I don't feel like using {le} myself.
>=20
> >So what do you reply if someone asks you in response "Which apple exactl=
y?",
> >e.g. {lo plise poi mo} or whatever.
>=20
> lo va plise poi se barna lo so'i cmalu ke manku xunre

The question is, what do you answer, if you _don't_ have a specific one=20
(or a group of specific ones) in mind, but {lo plise} is the most specific
thing you can say?

> >You could answer {ko cuxna}, but the major question is, whether you can
> >avoid such a question in the first place.
>=20
> Using {lo} should avoid it, {da} will only work if the scope is right.

Sure, uttering {ko dunda lo plise mi} means that you want an apple,
but it _leaves open_ whether it's specific or not.

If you want a specific one, you can use {lo plise poi broda}
to make use of contexual saliency or simply use {le}.

However, there does not seem to be a short(any?) construct to say,
you _don't_ want a specific one (or you don't have it in mind).

All you seem to be able to do is using {lo} and referring to the Gricean ma=
xim
of quality to argue that you would have said something more specific if you
wanted something more specific.

The trouble is, it seems many people don't apply this maxim in such a situa=
tion
(at least in my experience) and will still ask you which one you like.

In english you reply with "any", in german you reply with "irgendeinen", bu=
t in
Lojban you have to say something like "your choice" {ko cuxna}.


v4hn

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