From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" &l= t;lojban@googlegroups.com>
Se= nt: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}

Sur= ely from {ci} which means "exactly three of" in both contexts; the differen= ce is in the class we are talking about: the extension of {remna} in the fi= rst case, the extension of {lo remna} in the second.

The "def= inition" of {da} is only slightly more wrongheaded than the idea of definin= g {da} at all, it being a basic item in logic as spoken in Lojban: the ulti= mate sumti, if you will.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@= gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}

Where do you think "exactly" comes from? Certainl= y not from {da}, whose definition is {sumka'i .i pamoi ke logji lairka'e sn= icne}.

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012= at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

To give a concrete example, co= nsider the difference between {ci remna cu nanmu} and {ci lo remna cu nanmu= }. The former says "there are exactly three humans that are male. The latte= r says that we're talking about some humans, three of whom are male. Note t= hat the former is blatantly false, while the latter is true in plenty of co= ntexts.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Wed= , Dec 26, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
The similarity is nearly all s= yntactic; the semantics are entirely different. {ci broda cu brode} is an e= xtremely precise statement, saying that there are exactly 3 brodas that bro= de. {ci lo broda cu brode} is an imprecise statement, saying that there are= some brodas that are relevant in context, and three of them brode. It coul= d be that every broda brodes in the latter case, if only three broda= s are contextually relevant.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> = wrote:

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

zo'e noi ... and da poi ... are completely and totally different. One invol= ves context, the other doesn't (or, in some interpretations, "approximately= doesn't", i.e. context can affect the universe of discourse but in any cas= e it is "large"). Moreover, PA lo broda cu brode doesn't imply that no othe= r broda1 brode, whereas PA broda cu brode does.

Those are two very small differences. They do n= ot add up to "completely and totally".

Both are a variable pro-sumti= with an identifying clause attached. That spells "very similar" to me.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>= wrote:

On 26 December 2012 14:09, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
pa plise =3D pa lo plise =3D "one of one or more things which actually is a= n apple" =3D an apple (as opposed to "that apple")

This was only true in pre-xorlo. Under the gadri proposal, {pa broda} ->= {pa da poi ke'a broda} directly. In xorlo, {pa broda} and {pa lo broda} ar= e thus very different.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o<= /div>

No they aren't.

{pa lo broda= } =3D {pa zo'e noi ke'a broda}
{pa broda} =3D {pa da poi ke'a broda}
=
{zo'e noi...} and {da poi...} are very similar in meaning. The two phra= ses may not be "equal", but they are certainly still equivalent.

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 12:0= 4 PM, Pierre Abbat <= phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:

On Wednesday, December 26= , 2012 19:58:05 v4hn wrote:
> The question is, what do you answer, if you _don't_ have a specific on= e
> (or a group of specific ones) in mind, but {lo plise} is the most spec= ific
> thing you can say?

"lo co'e plise"? "lo nalsteci plise"?

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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