On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:43 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
= To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" &= lt;lojban@goog= legroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2= 6, 2012 9:19 PM

S= ubject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}

=

Surely from {ci} which means "exactly = three of" in both contexts; the difference is in the class we are talk= ing about: the extension of {remna} in the first case, the extension of {lo= remna} in the second.

The "definition" of {da} is only slightly more w= rongheaded than the idea of defining {da} at all, it being a basic item in = logic as spoken in Lojban: the ultimate sumti, if you will.

Seeing as t= he definition of {da} is basically just "the first variable pro-sumti&= quot;, I don't see a problem.
=A0

<= div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12p= t">

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@google= groups.com
Sent: We= dnesday, December 26, 2012 9:06 PM
= Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}

Where do you think "exactly" comes from? Certainly not from = {da}, whose definition is {sumka'i .i pamoi ke logji lairka'e snicn= e}.

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

To give a concrete example, consider the difference between {ci re= mna cu nanmu} and {ci lo remna cu nanmu}. The former says "there are e= xactly three humans that are male. The latter says that we're talking a= bout some humans, three of whom are male. Note that the former is blatantly= false, while the latter is true in plenty of contexts.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Wed, De= c 26, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gma= il.com> wrote:

The similarity is nearly all syntactic; the semantics are entirely= different. {ci broda cu brode} is an extremely precise statement, saying t= hat there are exactly 3 brodas that brode. {ci lo broda cu brode} is an imp= recise statement, saying that there are some brodas that are relevant in co= ntext, and three of them brode. It could be that every broda brodes = in the latter case, if only three brodas are contextually relevant.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Wed, De= c 26, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

zo'e noi ... and da poi ... are completely and totally different. One i= nvolves context, the other doesn't (or, in some interpretations, "= approximately doesn't", i.e. context can affect the universe of di= scourse but in any case it is "large"). Moreover, PA lo broda cu = brode doesn't imply that no other broda1 brode, whereas PA broda cu bro= de does.

Those are two very small differences. They do n= ot add up to "completely and totally".

Both are a variable= pro-sumti with an identifying clause attached. That spells "very simi= lar" to me.
=A0
mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012= at 9:25 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

On 26 December 2012 14:09, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@g= mail.com> wrote:
pa plise =3D pa lo plise =3D "one of one or more things which actually= is an apple" =3D an apple (as opposed to "that apple")
=

This was only true in pre-xorlo. Under the gadri proposal, {pa broda} ->= {pa da poi ke'a broda} directly. In xorlo, {pa broda} and {pa lo broda= } are thus very different.

.i mi'e la tsa= ni mu'o

No they aren't.

{pa lo b= roda} =3D {pa zo'e noi ke'a broda}
{pa broda} =3D {pa da poi ke&= #39;a broda}

{zo'e noi...} and {da poi...} are very similar in m= eaning. The two phrases may not be "equal", but they are certainl= y still equivalent.
=A0

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at = 12:04 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> = wrote:

On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 19:58:05 v4hn wrote:
> The question is, what do you answer, if you _don't_ have a specifi= c one
> (or a group of specific ones) in mind, but {lo plise} is the most spec= ific
> thing you can say?

"lo co'e plise"? "lo nalsteci plise"?

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )
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