Received: from mail-gh0-f183.google.com ([209.85.160.183]:38468) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1To4j0-0006aN-KO; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:50 -0800 Received: by mail-gh0-f183.google.com with SMTP id z12sf3906135ghb.10 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=9dYjUG9V9bD5E+j++wpfn9+p+nOb4ig4NKxUBdm+Xyo=; b=VxaLgCqOt6KsZLruoMHxlSNYD05GkTFaoIjpBgMEq+K3YlH70vofE2ttOfMeQpTvnY 8KLXj7B4UCsW1Pz8VNuz9CbaLggpqA8CQusjuBoNzNcOhf8giFHJU5FDAbNcAGMy4LqZ qETw1FfzM1dPV0Zed29TAXCzMTcldsWvyfECwlXxc0OXJtvWjFMPum3V4V0Gi0Gogv1b AISnqMSSlX25qQy4z+5VyZPzufS+KrLEoSdSkIblhtCnsoO11aKywE7sygY5TgfoP4jv quefs/78esxJGz1WA0XEPHmv0FueFiyu0BxYui7RAJFsufu8049ZJVchgLnCBDreM4Os 1f6A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=9dYjUG9V9bD5E+j++wpfn9+p+nOb4ig4NKxUBdm+Xyo=; b=cpJ09cipHukoYNOeOPboRYD572wTBn0COfZx5x0W2CETFs8hu4sIGEJE04sCVRz/7L tLpctukoKloBaGhdHWCOOhMdf5YcUp8LWno8PAgFVt8VOJKVhlqMS52oeFDcsmH+UQEY 5X0A0+PZk/HbdjIUCEh4bLMT7jm63867SOc8z+4fjL5pUdBGHGNaGDEDAYS7bW9cUMBZ VyBmHLaj2TiY0N9mMQ8Pr8qf+DTqJw4ZsMvjvZMtfRhLkaa1bRG+iydA74HVmaptpGSo UjnLUthtDT3liG4GODWAFqpoHsiCXD+7noR6korIaBTCiJPg8BjaXlpfzoWnVV7P2PMI UgjQ== X-Received: by 10.50.7.198 with SMTP id l6mr10092624iga.3.1356581135977; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.190.163 with SMTP id gr3ls10857255igc.17.canary; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.62.201 with SMTP id z9mr22597355ich.10.1356581135268; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.62.201 with SMTP id z9mr22597354ich.10.1356581135252; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f174.google.com (mail-ie0-f174.google.com [209.85.223.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o7si3008862igl.0.2012.12.26.20.05.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.174; Received: by mail-ie0-f174.google.com with SMTP id c11so10960829ieb.5 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.108.235 with SMTP id hn11mr20630468igb.100.1356581135149; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.142.134 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:05:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <44e6fb5c-91f3-47ba-817c-8560c9c6ca14@googlegroups.com> <50DB3C14.9060303@gmx.de> <20121226185805.GH7855@samsa.fritz.box> <3641882.8sMyCj0ouv@caracal>

<1356578353.49070.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:05:35 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / http://dag.github.com/cll/16/6/ On 27 December 2012 00:47, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:19 PM, John E Clifford > wrote: >> >> Surely from {ci} which means "exactly three of" in both contexts; the >> difference is in the class we are talking about: the extension of {remna} in >> the first case, the extension of {lo remna} in the second. > > > I don't see how you get the exactly. If there are four men standing in a > room, then it is true that there exists 3 X such that X is "a man standing > in a room", and the same for 2 X and 1 X. > >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Jonathan Jones >> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro} >> >> Where do you think "exactly" comes from? Certainly not from {da}, whose >> definition is {sumka'i .i pamoi ke logji lairka'e snicne}. >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson >> wrote: >> >> To give a concrete example, consider the difference between {ci remna cu >> nanmu} and {ci lo remna cu nanmu}. The former says "there are exactly three >> humans that are male. The latter says that we're talking about some humans, >> three of whom are male. Note that the former is blatantly false, while the >> latter is true in plenty of contexts. >> >> >> mu'o mi'e la latro'a >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Ian Johnson >> wrote: >> >> The similarity is nearly all syntactic; the semantics are entirely >> different. {ci broda cu brode} is an extremely precise statement, saying >> that there are exactly 3 brodas that brode. {ci lo broda cu brode} is an >> imprecise statement, saying that there are some brodas that are relevant in >> context, and three of them brode. It could be that every broda brodes in the >> latter case, if only three brodas are contextually relevant. >> >> >> mu'o mi'e la latro'a >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Ian Johnson >> wrote: >> >> zo'e noi ... and da poi ... are completely and totally different. One >> involves context, the other doesn't (or, in some interpretations, >> "approximately doesn't", i.e. context can affect the universe of discourse >> but in any case it is "large"). Moreover, PA lo broda cu brode doesn't imply >> that no other broda1 brode, whereas PA broda cu brode does. >> >> >> Those are two very small differences. They do not add up to "completely >> and totally". >> >> Both are a variable pro-sumti with an identifying clause attached. That >> spells "very similar" to me. >> >> >> mu'o mi'e la latro'a >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jacob Errington >> wrote: >> >> On 26 December 2012 14:09, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> pa plise = pa lo plise = "one of one or more things which actually is an >> apple" = an apple (as opposed to "that apple") >> >> >> This was only true in pre-xorlo. Under the gadri proposal, {pa broda} -> >> {pa da poi ke'a broda} directly. In xorlo, {pa broda} and {pa lo broda} are >> thus very different. >> >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o >> >> >> No they aren't. >> >> {pa lo broda} = {pa zo'e noi ke'a broda} >> {pa broda} = {pa da poi ke'a broda} >> >> {zo'e noi...} and {da poi...} are very similar in meaning. The two phrases >> may not be "equal", but they are certainly still equivalent. >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 19:58:05 v4hn wrote: >> > The question is, what do you answer, if you _don't_ have a specific one >> > (or a group of specific ones) in mind, but {lo plise} is the most >> > specific >> > thing you can say? >> >> "lo co'e plise"? "lo nalsteci plise"? >> >> Pierre >> -- >> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.