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Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
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On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:36 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 07:39:14AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:
> > ko dunda pa plise mi is "make it true that there exists exactly one apple
> > that you give to me."
>
> > If you have an apple in mind and say that, then you're not conveying
> > that you have one in mind at all.
>
> Completely understood and absolutely right.
>
> However, as far as I can see {ko dunda pa plise mi} does not explicitly
> say whether or not you have a specific apple in mind.
> It's just, that I didn't specify it, if I have one in mind.
> In my opinion it's still a valid counterquestion to ask "Which one?" here,
> don't you think so?
>
> Also, if you answer with {pa plise} again, it might be a bit stupid, but
> still
> it's a reasonable answer to say "I got that part, but which one do you
> want?"
> in my opinion.
>
> The question is, whether there is a way to _spell out_ that you _don't_
> have one in mind instead of omitting further information and waiting
> for the listener to recognize the conversational implicature.
>
> No such way, which does not explicitly state {ko cuxna} or {mi na pensi lo
> selsteci},
> was mentioned up to now _as far as I understood everything_
> and even the {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi} seems to rest on a very strong
> conversational implicature instead of explicitly stating that you don't
> care/know which one you'll get.
>
> That is because it doesn't seem to be a problem to me to add
>
> {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi .ije mi djica lonu do dunda lo zunle traji
> mi}.
>
> However, it is weird to say something like "Give me any apple. I want the
> leftmost one."
> or "Gib mir irgendeinen Apfel. Ich will den ganz Linken." (in my mother
> tongue).
>
>
> Any opinions?
>
>
> v4hn
>

I do't don't why you's want to explicitly state non-specificity. Why is
extremely over the top vague not good enough for you? In any case, the best
I can up with is the lujvo {nalterte'i}.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:36 AM, v4hn <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:me@v4hn.de" target=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 07:39:14AM -0500, Ian Johnson wro=
te:<br>
&gt; ko dunda pa plise mi is &quot;make it true that there exists exactly o=
ne apple<br>
&gt; that you give to me.&quot;<br>
<br>
&gt; If you have an apple in mind and say that, then you&#39;re not conveyi=
ng<br>
&gt; that you have one in mind at all.<br>
<br>
</div>Completely understood and absolutely right.<br>
<br>
However, as far as I can see {ko dunda pa plise mi} does not explicitly<br>
say whether or not you have a specific apple in mind.<br>
It&#39;s just, that I didn&#39;t specify it, if I have one in mind.<br>
In my opinion it&#39;s still a valid counterquestion to ask &quot;Which one=
?&quot; here,<br>
don&#39;t you think so?<br>
<br>
Also, if you answer with {pa plise} again, it might be a bit stupid, but st=
ill<br>
it&#39;s a reasonable answer to say &quot;I got that part, but which one do=
 you want?&quot;<br>
in my opinion.<br>
<br>
The question is, whether there is a way to _spell out_ that you _don&#39;t_=
<br>
have one in mind instead of omitting further information and waiting<br>
for the listener to recognize the conversational implicature.<br>
<br>
No such way, which does not explicitly state {ko cuxna} or {mi na pensi lo =
selsteci},<br>
was mentioned up to now _as far as I understood everything_<br>
and even the {ko dunda da poi plise ku&#39;o mi} seems to rest on a very st=
rong<br>
conversational implicature instead of explicitly stating that you don&#39;t=
<br>
care/know which one you&#39;ll get.<br>
<br>
That is because it doesn&#39;t seem to be a problem to me to add<br>
<br>
{ko dunda da poi plise ku&#39;o mi .ije mi djica lonu do dunda lo zunle tra=
ji mi}.<br>
<br>
However, it is weird to say something like &quot;Give me any apple. I want =
the leftmost one.&quot;<br>
or &quot;Gib mir irgendeinen Apfel. Ich will den ganz Linken.&quot; (in my =
mother tongue).<br>
<br>
<br>
Any opinions?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
v4hn<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>I do&#39;t don&#39;t why you&#39;s wan=
t to explicitly state non-specificity. Why is extremely over the top vague =
not good enough for you? In any case, the best I can up with is the lujvo {=
nalterte&#39;i}.<br clear=3D"all">
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
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?hl=3Den.<br />



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