Received: from mail-qc0-f183.google.com ([209.85.216.183]:37490) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ToEsl-0002Kt-QI; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:44 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f183.google.com with SMTP id i13sf5498036qcs.0 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=vIUXYqiyt9CQERRy5WwIWZqr2zmG++2vKWS1LQ/MmeI=; b=MlzesY6AmwUVyQnlWkgrjcDvymETm0kQ+vYiYS3aBu3UuNOlfUYBBMoG49ac+gN66F P/zMq7GfOXeso4dx+fEzEPTql6+ITg7J3qV8OcJouCFE9oXHyiCQPfKiwoSG9v8AT3j9 AQkPdQxarC9Aiu9SRabgJGmhOhayuWeiTsagMgY7NoVF1ZaJ3Xp0iwil8Nz0lK37WKjz X4yLdLNkg75B1BOrgFItJEdAbnGHHh2M48DmlcFa2XgbZmpEvbI+5wMNkXLgRgYIO7x0 v+ACZ5kbtlYUG1HKq7SHKNDDOaFrmCrBQpccJlZX5qmNFvpgQrlrNGMMvQ0bkgsVV6fq QVoA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=vIUXYqiyt9CQERRy5WwIWZqr2zmG++2vKWS1LQ/MmeI=; b=nqJRWWb8/qv8d/Ffnma01bcUqHQpETm14K6ci9E6kwnTdvxdaoaYkGj8EvXYDA8Fcs GxiQ5ge++d1f+5YpLvPrOy2y7mjZa/y6EVlZCASZKLasoJWJ50KSaEcmRUE+T8+ftu5y SUKl3xe13cAWItzxUzmB7CgXki6ZZxdO0InY49eFHBEJCjwzIedsmrhqdOYrGE8Bf2Sc JjIM+4cfs65JxWOVk7a0BlEUbtc62MaR1fUMVlszbZ3Yv3NBNu5EGIUahTFzxUpYecvq YEQ8PTEkWdB+8uCqZ58F+ccHaBZZeH3SKx5kbyIqT4PBGd7yRGkti0F51BkKBJIsHnUO s7WA== X-Received: by 10.50.106.193 with SMTP id gw1mr10355985igb.2.1356620181047; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.1.139 with SMTP id 11ls5951048igm.19.canary; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.0.148 with SMTP id 20mr27093760ige.3.1356620180571; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.0.148 with SMTP id 20mr27093759ige.3.1356620180546; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f179.google.com (mail-ob0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vb13si2474636igb.2.2012.12.27.06.56.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id x4so8896901obh.10 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.42.97 with SMTP id n1mr24730775obl.91.1356620180400; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 06:56:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1356578353.49070.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356579813.57137.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121227122817.GI7855@samsa.fritz.box> <20121227143638.GJ7855@samsa.fritz.box> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 07:56:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93998ebf2a9fb04d1d6bff9 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --14dae93998ebf2a9fb04d1d6bff9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 * don't know (don't ask me how it got typed out as "do't don't", either. My brain is weird sometimes.) On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:36 AM, v4hn wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 07:39:14AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote: >> > ko dunda pa plise mi is "make it true that there exists exactly one >> apple >> > that you give to me." >> >> > If you have an apple in mind and say that, then you're not conveying >> > that you have one in mind at all. >> >> Completely understood and absolutely right. >> >> However, as far as I can see {ko dunda pa plise mi} does not explicitly >> say whether or not you have a specific apple in mind. >> It's just, that I didn't specify it, if I have one in mind. >> In my opinion it's still a valid counterquestion to ask "Which one?" here, >> don't you think so? >> >> Also, if you answer with {pa plise} again, it might be a bit stupid, but >> still >> it's a reasonable answer to say "I got that part, but which one do you >> want?" >> in my opinion. >> >> The question is, whether there is a way to _spell out_ that you _don't_ >> have one in mind instead of omitting further information and waiting >> for the listener to recognize the conversational implicature. >> >> No such way, which does not explicitly state {ko cuxna} or {mi na pensi >> lo selsteci}, >> was mentioned up to now _as far as I understood everything_ >> and even the {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi} seems to rest on a very >> strong >> conversational implicature instead of explicitly stating that you don't >> care/know which one you'll get. >> >> That is because it doesn't seem to be a problem to me to add >> >> {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi .ije mi djica lonu do dunda lo zunle traji >> mi}. >> >> However, it is weird to say something like "Give me any apple. I want the >> leftmost one." >> or "Gib mir irgendeinen Apfel. Ich will den ganz Linken." (in my mother >> tongue). >> >> >> Any opinions? >> >> >> v4hn >> > > I do't don't why you's want to explicitly state non-specificity. Why is > extremely over the top vague not good enough for you? In any case, the best > I can up with is the lujvo {nalterte'i}. > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --14dae93998ebf2a9fb04d1d6bff9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * don't know (don't ask me how it got typed out as "do't d= on't", either. My brain is weird sometimes.)

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmai= l.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:36 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de><= /span> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 07:39:14AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:
> ko dunda pa plise mi is "make it true that there exists exactly o= ne apple
> that you give to me."

> If you have an apple in mind and say that, then you're not conveyi= ng
> that you have one in mind at all.

Completely understood and absolutely right.

However, as far as I can see {ko dunda pa plise mi} does not explicitly
say whether or not you have a specific apple in mind.
It's just, that I didn't specify it, if I have one in mind.
In my opinion it's still a valid counterquestion to ask "Which one= ?" here,
don't you think so?

Also, if you answer with {pa plise} again, it might be a bit stupid, but st= ill
it's a reasonable answer to say "I got that part, but which one do= you want?"
in my opinion.

The question is, whether there is a way to _spell out_ that you _don't_=
have one in mind instead of omitting further information and waiting
for the listener to recognize the conversational implicature.

No such way, which does not explicitly state {ko cuxna} or {mi na pensi lo = selsteci},
was mentioned up to now _as far as I understood everything_
and even the {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi} seems to rest on a very st= rong
conversational implicature instead of explicitly stating that you don't=
care/know which one you'll get.

That is because it doesn't seem to be a problem to me to add

{ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi .ije mi djica lonu do dunda lo zunle tra= ji mi}.

However, it is weird to say something like "Give me any apple. I want = the leftmost one."
or "Gib mir irgendeinen Apfel. Ich will den ganz Linken." (in my = mother tongue).


Any opinions?


v4hn

I do't don't why y= ou's want to explicitly state non-specificity. Why is extremely over th= e top vague not good enough for you? In any case, the best I can up with is= the lujvo {nalterte'i}.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--14dae93998ebf2a9fb04d1d6bff9--