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Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:36:45 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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You are correct that it does not convey "Give me an apple, I don't have one
in mind", since there's no statement about whether you have one in mind.
However, the command is satisfied no matter which apple they give you, so
pragmatically speaking it seems to do the job. It's just a bit subtle
because speech acts other than statements are a bit subtle in general.

However, since {pa plise} has no referents, I'm not sure whether "which
one?" is actually a valid counterquestion. This is a peculiarity of working
with {da} in general, sort of like the other thread I posted recently.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:36 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 07:39:14AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:
> > ko dunda pa plise mi is "make it true that there exists exactly one apple
> > that you give to me."
>
> > If you have an apple in mind and say that, then you're not conveying
> > that you have one in mind at all.
>
> Completely understood and absolutely right.
>
> However, as far as I can see {ko dunda pa plise mi} does not explicitly
> say whether or not you have a specific apple in mind.
> It's just, that I didn't specify it, if I have one in mind.
> In my opinion it's still a valid counterquestion to ask "Which one?" here,
> don't you think so?
>
> Also, if you answer with {pa plise} again, it might be a bit stupid, but
> still
> it's a reasonable answer to say "I got that part, but which one do you
> want?"
> in my opinion.
>
> The question is, whether there is a way to _spell out_ that you _don't_
> have one in mind instead of omitting further information and waiting
> for the listener to recognize the conversational implicature.
>
> No such way, which does not explicitly state {ko cuxna} or {mi na pensi lo
> selsteci},
> was mentioned up to now _as far as I understood everything_
> and even the {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi} seems to rest on a very strong
> conversational implicature instead of explicitly stating that you don't
> care/know which one you'll get.
>
> That is because it doesn't seem to be a problem to me to add
>
> {ko dunda da poi plise ku'o mi .ije mi djica lonu do dunda lo zunle traji
> mi}.
>
> However, it is weird to say something like "Give me any apple. I want the
> leftmost one."
> or "Gib mir irgendeinen Apfel. Ich will den ganz Linken." (in my mother
> tongue).
>
>
> Any opinions?
>
>
> v4hn
>

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You are correct that it does not convey &quot;Give me an apple, I don&#39;t=
 have one in mind&quot;, since there&#39;s no statement about whether you h=
ave one in mind. However, the command is satisfied no matter which apple th=
ey give you, so pragmatically speaking it seems to do the job. It&#39;s jus=
t a bit subtle because speech acts other than statements are a bit subtle i=
n general.<br>
<br>However, since {pa plise} has no referents, I&#39;m not sure whether &q=
uot;which one?&quot; is actually a valid counterquestion. This is a peculia=
rity of working with {da} in general, sort of like the other thread I poste=
d recently.<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:36 AM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
e@v4hn.de" target=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 07:39:14AM -0500, Ian Johnson wro=
te:<br>
&gt; ko dunda pa plise mi is &quot;make it true that there exists exactly o=
ne apple<br>
&gt; that you give to me.&quot;<br>
<br>
&gt; If you have an apple in mind and say that, then you&#39;re not conveyi=
ng<br>
&gt; that you have one in mind at all.<br>
<br>
</div>Completely understood and absolutely right.<br>
<br>
However, as far as I can see {ko dunda pa plise mi} does not explicitly<br>
say whether or not you have a specific apple in mind.<br>
It&#39;s just, that I didn&#39;t specify it, if I have one in mind.<br>
In my opinion it&#39;s still a valid counterquestion to ask &quot;Which one=
?&quot; here,<br>
don&#39;t you think so?<br>
<br>
Also, if you answer with {pa plise} again, it might be a bit stupid, but st=
ill<br>
it&#39;s a reasonable answer to say &quot;I got that part, but which one do=
 you want?&quot;<br>
in my opinion.<br>
<br>
The question is, whether there is a way to _spell out_ that you _don&#39;t_=
<br>
have one in mind instead of omitting further information and waiting<br>
for the listener to recognize the conversational implicature.<br>
<br>
No such way, which does not explicitly state {ko cuxna} or {mi na pensi lo =
selsteci},<br>
was mentioned up to now _as far as I understood everything_<br>
and even the {ko dunda da poi plise ku&#39;o mi} seems to rest on a very st=
rong<br>
conversational implicature instead of explicitly stating that you don&#39;t=
<br>
care/know which one you&#39;ll get.<br>
<br>
That is because it doesn&#39;t seem to be a problem to me to add<br>
<br>
{ko dunda da poi plise ku&#39;o mi .ije mi djica lonu do dunda lo zunle tra=
ji mi}.<br>
<br>
However, it is weird to say something like &quot;Give me any apple. I want =
the leftmost one.&quot;<br>
or &quot;Gib mir irgendeinen Apfel. Ich will den ganz Linken.&quot; (in my =
mother tongue).<br>
<br>
<br>
Any opinions?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
v4hn<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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