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Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 17:01:09 +0100
Message-ID: <CAAQ0imNnBAVwmWyvah1g3_Kzbh-LX=094BTknjZuCje_J9CQaw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Anti-CLL aka a proposal for a new policy for teaching lojban
From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
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It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it "gramatically
incorrect" is just a false statement. I really doubt there's much money
coming out from selling it, so asking "where the money goes" seems rather
pointless to me.

To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it's not a tool for
teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xorlo (of course),
use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly get rid of mekso
(or just deprecate it).

That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching material, and I agree that
the most important goal is to spread the language. The point is that I
think we should use CLL as a starting point, there's no value in rejecting
it.

About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be done in English
first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from it and,
eventually, translate it in their own language.  I'll probably never
complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in English first,
so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll translate it
into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into their
language.

remod.


On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>wrote:

> 1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will
> be grammatically incorrect. What is the reason to raise money from
> something broken? Present something perfect and the book will become a
> bestseller.
> 2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.
> 3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating to other
> languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't allow
> synchronous updates to other languages.
> If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to me.
> Except lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.
>
> Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed description for
> experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English here?
>
> Here is my proposal.
> 1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a
> short pdf file without any search capabilities will do. This is a task that
> is very easy to complete.
> 2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons).
> The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can
> start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Waves must
> be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.
> 3. jbo-CLL.
> When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to
> this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary
> description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and
> understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues.
>
> Consequences.
> 1. translating the Waves to other languages is easier cuz they are short
> and written in a simple language.
> 2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.
>
> Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they implicitly
> advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the money obtained
> from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It's the perfect
> design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.
> Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.
> If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency
> all most important goals are complete.
>
> That's the plan how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and
> well-known around the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak
> English.
>
> P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site
> for Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in
> Esperanto, not even in English.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/qSniiCo0fMwJ.
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it=
 &quot;gramatically incorrect&quot; is just a false statement. I really dou=
bt there&#39;s much money coming out from selling it, so asking &quot;where=
 the money goes&quot; seems rather pointless to me.<br>
<br></div><div>To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it&#39=
;s not a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xor=
lo (of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly =
get rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>That said, I&#39;m all in favour of more teaching=
 material, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the langua=
ge. The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there&=
#39;s no value in rejecting it.<br>
<br></div><div>About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be =
done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from=
 it and, eventually, translate it in their own language.=A0 I&#39;ll probab=
ly never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in Englis=
h first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I&#39;ll tra=
nslate it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into t=
heir language.<br>
<br></div><div>remod.<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, la gleki <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in =
Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect. What is the =
reason to raise money from something broken? Present something perfect and =
the book will become a bestseller.</div>
<div>2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn&#39;t teach people languag=
e.</div><div>3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating=
 to other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn&#39;t a=
llow synchronous updates to other languages.</div>
<div>If you love english it&#39;s your choice. All languages are equal to m=
e. Except lojban. And I don&#39;t have any special love for English.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed=
 description for experienced users? Well, that&#39;s a good idea. But why u=
sing English here?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Here is my proposal.</div><div><div>1. Present a short =
dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file witho=
ut any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to com=
plete.</div>
</div><div>2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku&#39;s origina=
l lessons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a diction=
ary can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Wa=
ves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.<br>
</div><div>3. jbo-CLL.<br></div><div>When the person successfully completes=
 the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most =
detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker=
 is able to read and understand. It&#39;s written in simple lojban but desc=
ribes complicated issues.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Consequences.</div><div>1. translating the Waves to oth=
er languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.=
</div><div>2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.</div><div>
<br></div><div>Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they i=
mplicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don&#39;t understand where the =
money obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It&#3=
9;s the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular=
.</div>
<div>Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.</div><div>If 1=
0 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all mos=
t important goals are complete.</div><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s the pla=
n how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around=
 the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.</div>
<div><br></div><div>P.S. Recently I&#39;ve discovered that much stuff on <a=
 href=3D"http://lernu.net" target=3D"_blank">lernu.net</a> (a web site for =
Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, =
not even in English.</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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