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Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:44:07 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgKJGqMNPOXFoxrz=3Eiv9CXNeOfJFRycj9bSmMcLFqMUA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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I'm not sure whether you can use GOI in general with da clauses, nor really
{rV}, as {rV} operates at referent-level, not syntax-level.

Basically (as we noticed in the other thread), a *completely *logical usage
of {da} is not really very useful. The question is what exactly to relax to
make it more practical.

mu'o mi'e la latro'a

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:42 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 10:36:45AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:
> > You are correct that it does not convey "Give me an apple, I don't have
> one
> > in mind", since there's no statement about whether you have one in mind.
> > However, the command is satisfied no matter which apple they give you, so
> > pragmatically speaking it seems to do the job. It's just a bit subtle
> > because speech acts other than statements are a bit subtle in general.
> >
> > However, since {pa plise} has no referents, I'm not sure whether "which
> > one?" is actually a valid counterquestion. This is a peculiarity of
> working
> > with {da} in general, sort of like the other thread I posted recently.
>
> But {ra po'u pa plise ge'u mo} would be a valid question, wouldn't it?
> I'm quite sure I did not fully understand the da/zo'e usage up to now,
> so this might be wrong.
>
> The major difference in pragmatical usage is whether "which one do you
> mean?"
> is a valid counterquestion. If there is a proper way to utter
> "give me an apple" that implies you don't know or care about which apple
> you get
> and that renders the counterquestion "which one?" inappropriate, then I'm
> fine.
>
> {ko dunda lo narselte'i plise mi} could work out, but I'm not sure.
> (I would prefer na over na'e here).
>
>
> {ma pinka}?
>
>
> v4hn
>

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I&#39;m not sure whether you can use GOI in general with da clauses, nor re=
ally {rV}, as {rV} operates at referent-level, not syntax-level.<br><br>Bas=
ically (as we noticed in the other thread), a <i>completely </i>logical usa=
ge of {da} is not really very useful. The question is what exactly to relax=
 to make it more practical.<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:42 AM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:me@v4hn.de" target=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 10:36:45AM -0500, Ian Johnson wro=
te:<br>
&gt; You are correct that it does not convey &quot;Give me an apple, I don&=
#39;t have one<br>
&gt; in mind&quot;, since there&#39;s no statement about whether you have o=
ne in mind.<br>
&gt; However, the command is satisfied no matter which apple they give you,=
 so<br>
&gt; pragmatically speaking it seems to do the job. It&#39;s just a bit sub=
tle<br>
&gt; because speech acts other than statements are a bit subtle in general.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; However, since {pa plise} has no referents, I&#39;m not sure whether &=
quot;which<br>
&gt; one?&quot; is actually a valid counterquestion. This is a peculiarity =
of working<br>
&gt; with {da} in general, sort of like the other thread I posted recently.=
<br>
<br>
</div>But {ra po&#39;u pa plise ge&#39;u mo} would be a valid question, wou=
ldn&#39;t it?<br>
I&#39;m quite sure I did not fully understand the da/zo&#39;e usage up to n=
ow,<br>
so this might be wrong.<br>
<br>
The major difference in pragmatical usage is whether &quot;which one do you=
 mean?&quot;<br>
is a valid counterquestion. If there is a proper way to utter<br>
&quot;give me an apple&quot; that implies you don&#39;t know or care about =
which apple you get<br>
and that renders the counterquestion &quot;which one?&quot; inappropriate, =
then I&#39;m fine.<br>
<br>
{ko dunda lo narselte&#39;i plise mi} could work out, but I&#39;m not sure.=
<br>
(I would prefer na over na&#39;e here).<br>
<br>
<br>
{ma pinka}?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
v4hn<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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