On Thu,= Dec 27, 2012 at 12:30 PM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, Decem= ber 27, 2012 9:24:51 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:

I may be unusual in this respect, but I would not have lea= rned lojban if the CLL did not exist, for two reasons: first, I actually us= ed it as learning material, since grammar interests me more than vocabulary= ; second, part of the appeal of lojban is its thorough documentation (in th= e same sense as is use to talk about programming languages or libraries).

Level 2 (Waves = 2.0) don't exist now. Therefore we don't have any other options now= . Level 3 doesn't exist neither.
I propose something somethin= g that is better.

pe'i reading jbo-CLL is better than english-CLL.

=A0

On Thu, Dec= 27, 2012 at 11:57 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail= .com> wrote:

If CLL were only and= entirely in Lojban, almost nobody would (or even could) use it.=A0

stevo

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 a= t 11:01 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com>= wrote:

It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it "gramatically = incorrect" is just a false statement. I really doubt there's much = money coming out from selling it, so asking "where the money goes"= ; seems rather pointless to me.

To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it'= ;s not a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xor= lo (of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly = get rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).

That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching= material, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the langua= ge. The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there&= #39;s no value in rejecting it.

About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be = done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from= it and, eventually, translate it in their own language.=A0 I'll probab= ly never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in Englis= h first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll tra= nslate it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into t= heir language.

remod.

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, la gle= ki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. The CLL is a= tool to raise money in Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically= incorrect. What is the reason to raise money from something broken? Presen= t something perfect and the book will become a bestseller.

2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people languag= e.
3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating= to other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't a= llow synchronous updates to other languages.

If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to m= e. Except lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.
<= div>
Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed= description for experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why u= sing English here?

Here is my proposal.
1. Present a short = dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file witho= ut any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to com= plete.

2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's origina= l lessons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a diction= ary can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Wa= ves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.

3. jbo-CLL.
When the person successfully completes= the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most = detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker= is able to read and understand. It's written in simple lojban but desc= ribes complicated issues.=A0

Consequences.
1. translating the Waves to oth= er languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.=
2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.

Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they i= mplicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the = money obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It= 9;s the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular= .

Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.
If 1= 0 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all mos= t important goals are complete.

That's the pla= n how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around= the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.

P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site for = Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, = not even in English.

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