stevo

On Thu, Dec 27,= 2012 at 11:01 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.c= om> wrote:

It is a fact that CLL = needs to be updated but call it "gramatically incorrect" is just a false st= atement. I really doubt there's much money coming out from selling it, so a= sking "where the money goes" seems rather pointless to me.

To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it's n= ot a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xorlo (= of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly get = rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).

That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching mat= erial, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the language. = The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there's no= value in rejecting it.

About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be = done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from= it and, eventually, translate it in their own language. I'll probabl= y never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in English= first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll translat= e it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into their = language.

remod.

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, la gleki <= ;gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in = Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect. What is the = reason to raise money from something broken? Present something perfect and = the book will become a bestseller.

2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.
3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating to = other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't allow syn= chronous updates to other languages.

If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to me. E= xcept lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.

=
Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed descrip= tion for experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English= here?

Here is my proposal.
1. Present a short = dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file witho= ut any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to com= plete.

2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original le= ssons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary = can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Waves = must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.

3. jbo-CLL.
When the person successfully completes= the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most = detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker= is able to read and understand. It's written in simple lojban but describe= s complicated issues.

Consequences.
1. translating the Waves to oth= er languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.=
2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.

Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they i= mplicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the mone= y obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It's the = perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.

Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.
If 1= 0 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all mos= t important goals are complete.

That's the plan ho= w we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around the= world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.

P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site for Espe= ranto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, not = even in English.

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