Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:39543) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TpIvF-0000P6-W2; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:37 -0800 Received: by mail-gg0-f189.google.com with SMTP id q1sf6944991ggm.26 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=M9Q75psNuy32IWQ0YXxSHvcAf6aUs62UeaRUV9xFum0=; b=fVhioo1PE7y+HMn1OeImxoPPLmYP/dq3uOdY4tOCH2jDId95XrjnF6ooG/dfqYCW28 gSmJzkGF9QtCxYbZFkw5raeVmF0xo0LlDJ6Mfx34Bl9bk+m2hfOQ1XL/IKhDDfPEYdNP vdWBRMeqQkuSivzLg1XTWqyZ/OvzF2ndzTNGLNqFSYVOMnvLJlBZR4NO5Do42EDos1hC HxqM0QMw1je5ft0JOPfyaCpof0HllIyekbjvvwpIWdRZx1lQj4lXGaqKAswfMYBgCNQo Ii4rfyxyNfNHKgckkPlzO/PHVhhe5qlOzL/dpsA8k8v1wOfKpHMMK5tzgTy15W/Zh0n6 yZHQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=M9Q75psNuy32IWQ0YXxSHvcAf6aUs62UeaRUV9xFum0=; b=heWavtiCm9wnhYUlQQjOWBJcf7CstW7PlfW4I/AnX7ekL5auVHazmRbPlqqo6HN/WZ h7P0K/VgCYCLgw98N3jg8K+mRJvmW4sIgTx0kKAoGhAI2rWmpZND913PP0oBRPTVFAj2 XJTQhDlGPgeSMthWXuzUOnm1DGZaIOLUSNiDQoyudYZWogkT3YiWNjVrzaW+qDuwvPbZ ubhl5OCr1bCO7wKuWSTJ32lmwdm8XC09vRgA8xA85l+09NGBwXI317sumJ5ffqlTnWCi 34MVHkJ++csqOzUseXjixrFXgWvpomG8ItpreZhBB/rDQAOPfygSDqiF2XeBr9Y0NNkg bNiw== X-Received: by 10.49.15.6 with SMTP id t6mr5677092qec.20.1356874039313; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:19 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.127.48 with SMTP id nd16ls5286083qeb.17.gmail; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:17 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.24.164 with SMTP id v4mr5835865qef.6.1356874037924; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:17 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <502A81EB.2000005@gmail.com> <502A9A2C.20606@gmail.com> <55e70b7d-e835-423b-8557-8ae88b88a4e2@googlegroups.com> <504112FA.4010001@gmail.com> <5041FE65.9030902@gmx.de> <5f11ab31-5816-474c-84cb-c0b50e6aa3aa@googlegroups.com> <74daaf70-4652-4b75-85fa-dc838f155234@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an abridged extract from Ithkuil grammar. Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often impossible= =20 to drop out words that are known from context anyway. Therefore, the=20 translations to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes this. Again note that you might wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I=20 don't care. *5.2.1* *FAC* *The Factual* The FACTUAL mood signifies that the factuality of the speaker=92s statement= =20 is certain and that there either is no underlying presupposition to the=20 statement, or if there is, its factuality is also certain or has no bearing= =20 on the factuality of the statement. Examples: * **His kids are ill.* [i.e., it is known he has kids and it is known they=20 are ill] =20 {lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} *5.2.2* *SUB* *The Subjunctive* The SUBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or=20 implicit presupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the=20 factuality of the speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain= ,=20 the specific nuance of factuality intended being subject to the particular= =20 Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with=20 English =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction t= hat an=20 explicit or implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples: *Maybe his kids are ill.* [i.e., it is known that he has kids but it is not= =20 known whether they are ill] {lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} *5.2.3* *ASM* *The Assumptive* The ASSUMPTIVE mood functions identically to the FACTUAL except that the=20 factuality of an underlying presupposition is unknown. It therefore conveys= =20 an act, state, or event whose factuality is dependent on whether something= =20 else is factual, thus corresponding to certain usages of English =91maybe= =92=20 and =91will=92 (where =91will=92 primarily conveys possibility, not future = tense).=20 As with all moods, the specific translation is subject to the particular=20 Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Examples: *His kids=92ll be ill* *OR* *If he has kids, they are ill.* [i.e., it is=20 unknown whether he has kids, but if he does, they are certainly ill.] {lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} *5.2.4* *SPC* *The Speculative* The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of both the=20 presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its translation into= =20 English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes corresponding to=20 =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times corresponding to = the=20 auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to those above: *Maybe his kids are ill* [i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but if he=20 does, they may be ill]. {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} *5.2.5* *COU* *The Counterfactive* The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 presupposition is false or unreal but that the factuality of the statement= =20 would otherwise be true. It thus corresponds to the English construction of= =20 auxiliary =91would=92 or =91would have=92 in its use to show counterfactual= ity=20 (i.e., what would have been if a false presupposition had been true).=20 Again, the specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and=20 Validation associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those=20 above. *His kids would be (would have been) ill* [i.e., if he had kids they would= =20 be ill, but he doesn=92t]. {lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} *5.2.6* *HYP* *The Hypothetical* The HYPOTHETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 presupposition is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statement= =20 itself is uncertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of=20 auxiliary =91might have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality (i= .e.,=20 what might have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the= =20 specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation=20 associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those above. *His kids might=92ve been ill* [if he had kids, but he doesn=92t, so we=92l= l=20 never know]. {lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} *5.2.7* *IPL* *The Implicative* The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 presupposition determines the factuality of the statement and that the=20 relationship between the two need not necessarily be a direct=20 cause-and-effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from which the=20 speaker infers the statement from the underlying presupposition. In=20 grammatical analysis, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.= =94=20 Examples are shown below. *His kids are (must be) ill* [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as= =20 his staying home from work]. {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa} {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno} *5.2.8* *ASC* *The Ascriptive* The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IMPLICATIVE immediately=20 above, except that the factuality of the inference derived from the=20 underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples: *His kids may be ill* [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his=20 staying home from work]. {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa sei cumki} {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki} --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/cEWok4YC7fkJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an abridged extrac= t from Ithkuil grammar.
Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often impossi= ble to drop out words that are known from context anyway. Therefore, the tr= anslations to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes this.
=
Again note that you might = wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I don't care.
5.2.1
FAC
The Factual

The FACTUAL mood signifies that the factuality of th= e speaker=92s statement is certain and that there either is no underlying p= resupposition to the statement, or if there is, its factuality is also cert= ain or has no bearing on the factuality of the statement. Examples:


His kids are ill. [i.e., it is known h= e has kids and it is known they are ill]          =

{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}

<= p class=3D"style11" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0px; outline: 0px; background-c= olor: transparent;">


<= td width=3D"16%" style=3D"outline: 0px; background-color: transparent;">5.2.2<= /td>

The SUBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or im= plicit presupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the factuali= ty of the speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain, the sp= ecific nuance of factuality intended being subject to the particular Bias a= nd Validation associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with English = =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction that an e= xplicit or implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples:


Maybe his kids are ill. [i.e.,= it is known that he has kids but it is not known whether they are ill]

=

{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku = bilma sei cumki}


SUB
The Subjunctive
5.2.3


His kids=92ll be ill OR If he has kids, they are = ill. [i.e., it is unknown whether he has kids, but if he does, th= ey are certainly ill.]

{lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}


ASM
The Assumptive
5.2.4
SPC
The Speculative

The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factu= ality of both the presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its = translation into English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes co= rresponding to =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times co= rresponding to the auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to tho= se above:


Maybe his kids are ill&= nbsp;[i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but if he does, they may be ill].<= /p>

{lo panzi be do ku bilma s= ei cumki}

5.2.5
COU
=
The Count= erfactive

The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates= that the factuality of the underlying presupposition is false or unreal bu= t that the factuality of the statement would otherwise be true. It thus cor= responds to the English construction of auxiliary =91would=92 or =91would h= ave=92 in its use to show counterfactuality (i.e., what would have been if = a false presupposition had been true). Again, the specific translation is s= ubject to the particular Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Comp= are the examples below to those above.


His kids would be (would have been) ill [i.e., if he had kids th= ey would be ill, but he doesn=92t].

{lo sei na = fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}


5.2.6
H= YP
The Hypothetical
=

The HYPO= THETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying presuppositio= n is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statement itself is unc= ertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of auxiliary =91mig= ht have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality (i.e., what might = have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the specific tra= nslation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation associated with t= he verb. Compare the examples below to those above.


His kids might=92ve been ill [if he had kids, but h= e doesn=92t, so we=92ll never know].

{lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki}


=
5.2.7=
IPL
The Implicative

The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the und= erlying presupposition determines the factuality of the statement and that = the relationship between the two need not necessarily be a direct cause-and= -effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from which the speaker infe= rs the statement from the underlying presupposition. In grammatical analysi= s, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.=94 Examples are show= n below.


His kids are (must be) ill&n= bsp;[i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his staying home from work= ].

{lo panzi be do ku bilm= a sei se sinxa}

{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno}


<= /p>

5.2.8
ASC
The Ascriptive=

The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IM= PLICATIVE immediately above, except that the factuality of the inference de= rived from the underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples:


His kids may be ill [i.e., as implied by some other = fact such as his staying home from work].

{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa sei cumki}

{= lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki}

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/cE= Wok4YC7fkJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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