Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:39543)
by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from )
id 1TpIvF-0000P6-W2; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:37 -0800
Received: by mail-gg0-f189.google.com with SMTP id q1sf6944991ggm.26
for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:19 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id
:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
bh=M9Q75psNuy32IWQ0YXxSHvcAf6aUs62UeaRUV9xFum0=;
b=fVhioo1PE7y+HMn1OeImxoPPLmYP/dq3uOdY4tOCH2jDId95XrjnF6ooG/dfqYCW28
gSmJzkGF9QtCxYbZFkw5raeVmF0xo0LlDJ6Mfx34Bl9bk+m2hfOQ1XL/IKhDDfPEYdNP
vdWBRMeqQkuSivzLg1XTWqyZ/OvzF2ndzTNGLNqFSYVOMnvLJlBZR4NO5Do42EDos1hC
HxqM0QMw1je5ft0JOPfyaCpof0HllIyekbjvvwpIWdRZx1lQj4lXGaqKAswfMYBgCNQo
Ii4rfyxyNfNHKgckkPlzO/PHVhhe5qlOzL/dpsA8k8v1wOfKpHMMK5tzgTy15W/Zh0n6
yZHQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id
:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
bh=M9Q75psNuy32IWQ0YXxSHvcAf6aUs62UeaRUV9xFum0=;
b=heWavtiCm9wnhYUlQQjOWBJcf7CstW7PlfW4I/AnX7ekL5auVHazmRbPlqqo6HN/WZ
h7P0K/VgCYCLgw98N3jg8K+mRJvmW4sIgTx0kKAoGhAI2rWmpZND913PP0oBRPTVFAj2
XJTQhDlGPgeSMthWXuzUOnm1DGZaIOLUSNiDQoyudYZWogkT3YiWNjVrzaW+qDuwvPbZ
ubhl5OCr1bCO7wKuWSTJ32lmwdm8XC09vRgA8xA85l+09NGBwXI317sumJ5ffqlTnWCi
34MVHkJ++csqOzUseXjixrFXgWvpomG8ItpreZhBB/rDQAOPfygSDqiF2XeBr9Y0NNkg
bNiw==
X-Received: by 10.49.15.6 with SMTP id t6mr5677092qec.20.1356874039313;
Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:19 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.49.127.48 with SMTP id nd16ls5286083qeb.17.gmail; Sun, 30 Dec
2012 05:27:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.49.24.164 with SMTP id v4mr5835865qef.6.1356874037924;
Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:27:17 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To:
References: <502A81EB.2000005@gmail.com> <502A9A2C.20606@gmail.com> <55e70b7d-e835-423b-8557-8ae88b88a4e2@googlegroups.com> <504112FA.4010001@gmail.com>
<5041FE65.9030902@gmx.de>
<5f11ab31-5816-474c-84cb-c0b50e6aa3aa@googlegroups.com>
<74daaf70-4652-4b75-85fa-dc838f155234@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID:
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: ,
List-Help: ,
List-Archive:
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: ,
List-Unsubscribe: ,
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532"
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /
------=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an abridged extract from Ithkuil grammar.
Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often impossible=
=20
to drop out words that are known from context anyway. Therefore, the=20
translations to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes this.
Again note that you might wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I=20
don't care.
*5.2.1*
*FAC*
*The Factual*
The FACTUAL mood signifies that the factuality of the speaker=92s statement=
=20
is certain and that there either is no underlying presupposition to the=20
statement, or if there is, its factuality is also certain or has no bearing=
=20
on the factuality of the statement. Examples:
*
**His kids are ill.* [i.e., it is known he has kids and it is known they=20
are ill] =20
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}
*5.2.2*
*SUB*
*The Subjunctive*
The SUBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or=20
implicit presupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the=20
factuality of the speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain=
,=20
the specific nuance of factuality intended being subject to the particular=
=20
Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with=20
English =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction t=
hat an=20
explicit or implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples:
*Maybe his kids are ill.* [i.e., it is known that he has kids but it is not=
=20
known whether they are ill]
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki}
*5.2.3*
*ASM*
*The Assumptive*
The ASSUMPTIVE mood functions identically to the FACTUAL except that the=20
factuality of an underlying presupposition is unknown. It therefore conveys=
=20
an act, state, or event whose factuality is dependent on whether something=
=20
else is factual, thus corresponding to certain usages of English =91maybe=
=92=20
and =91will=92 (where =91will=92 primarily conveys possibility, not future =
tense).=20
As with all moods, the specific translation is subject to the particular=20
Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Examples:
*His kids=92ll be ill* *OR* *If he has kids, they are ill.* [i.e., it is=20
unknown whether he has kids, but if he does, they are certainly ill.]
{lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}
*5.2.4*
*SPC*
*The Speculative*
The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of both the=20
presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its translation into=
=20
English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes corresponding to=20
=91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times corresponding to =
the=20
auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to those above:
*Maybe his kids are ill* [i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but if he=20
does, they may be ill].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki}
*5.2.5*
*COU*
*The Counterfactive*
The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20
presupposition is false or unreal but that the factuality of the statement=
=20
would otherwise be true. It thus corresponds to the English construction of=
=20
auxiliary =91would=92 or =91would have=92 in its use to show counterfactual=
ity=20
(i.e., what would have been if a false presupposition had been true).=20
Again, the specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and=20
Validation associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those=20
above.
*His kids would be (would have been) ill* [i.e., if he had kids they would=
=20
be ill, but he doesn=92t].
{lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}
*5.2.6*
*HYP*
*The Hypothetical*
The HYPOTHETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20
presupposition is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statement=
=20
itself is uncertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of=20
auxiliary =91might have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality (i=
.e.,=20
what might have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the=
=20
specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation=20
associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those above.
*His kids might=92ve been ill* [if he had kids, but he doesn=92t, so we=92l=
l=20
never know].
{lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki}
*5.2.7*
*IPL*
*The Implicative*
The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20
presupposition determines the factuality of the statement and that the=20
relationship between the two need not necessarily be a direct=20
cause-and-effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from which the=20
speaker infers the statement from the underlying presupposition. In=20
grammatical analysis, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.=
=94=20
Examples are shown below.
*His kids are (must be) ill* [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as=
=20
his staying home from work].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa}
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno}
*5.2.8*
*ASC*
*The Ascriptive*
The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IMPLICATIVE immediately=20
above, except that the factuality of the inference derived from the=20
underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples:
*His kids may be ill* [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his=20
staying home from work].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa sei cumki}
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki}
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo=
jban/-/cEWok4YC7fkJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an abridged extrac=
t from Ithkuil grammar.
Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often impossi=
ble to drop out words that are known from context anyway. Therefore, the tr=
anslations to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes this.
=
Again note that you might =
wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I don't care.
The FACTUAL mood signifies that the factuality of th=
e speaker=92s statement is certain and that there either is no underlying p=
resupposition to the statement, or if there is, its factuality is also cert=
ain or has no bearing on the factuality of the statement. Examples:
His kids are ill. [i.e., it is known h=
e has kids and it is known they are ill] =
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}
<=
p class=3D"style11" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0px; outline: 0px; background-c=
olor: transparent;">
<=
td width=3D"16%" style=3D"outline: 0px; background-color: transparent;">5.2.2<=
/td>SUB | | The Subjunctive |
=
table>The SUBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or im=
plicit presupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the factuali=
ty of the speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain, the sp=
ecific nuance of factuality intended being subject to the particular Bias a=
nd Validation associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with English =
=91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction that an e=
xplicit or implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples:
Maybe his kids are ill. [i.e.,=
it is known that he has kids but it is not known whether they are ill]
=
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku =
bilma sei cumki}
5.2.3=
td>ASM | | The Assumptive |
The ASSUMPTIVE mood functions identically to the FACTUAL except that the =
factuality of an underlying presupposition is unknown. It therefore conveys=
an act, state, or event whose factuality is dependent on whether something=
else is factual, thus corresponding to certain usages of English =91maybe=
=92 and =91will=92 (where =91will=92 primarily conveys possibility, not fut=
ure tense). As with all moods, the specific translation is subject to the p=
articular Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Examples:
His kids=92ll be ill OR If he has kids, they are =
ill. [i.e., it is unknown whether he has kids, but if he does, th=
ey are certainly ill.]
{lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}
The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factu=
ality of both the presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its =
translation into English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes co=
rresponding to =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times co=
rresponding to the auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to tho=
se above:
Maybe his kids are ill&=
nbsp;[i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but if he does, they may be ill].<=
/p>
{lo panzi be do ku bilma s=
ei cumki}
5.2.5 | COU | =
| The Count=
erfactive |
The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates=
that the factuality of the underlying presupposition is false or unreal bu=
t that the factuality of the statement would otherwise be true. It thus cor=
responds to the English construction of auxiliary =91would=92 or =91would h=
ave=92 in its use to show counterfactuality (i.e., what would have been if =
a false presupposition had been true). Again, the specific translation is s=
ubject to the particular Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Comp=
are the examples below to those above.
His kids would be (would have been) ill [i.e., if he had kids th=
ey would be ill, but he doesn=92t].
{lo sei na =
fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}
5.2.6 | H=
YP | | The Hypothetical |
=
The HYPO=
THETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying presuppositio=
n is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statement itself is unc=
ertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of auxiliary =91mig=
ht have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality (i.e., what might =
have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the specific tra=
nslation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation associated with t=
he verb. Compare the examples below to those above.
His kids might=92ve been ill [if he had kids, but h=
e doesn=92t, so we=92ll never know].
{lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki}
5.2.7=
| IPL | | The Implicative |
=
The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the und=
erlying presupposition determines the factuality of the statement and that =
the relationship between the two need not necessarily be a direct cause-and=
-effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from which the speaker infe=
rs the statement from the underlying presupposition. In grammatical analysi=
s, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.=94 Examples are show=
n below.
His kids are (must be) ill&n=
bsp;[i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his staying home from work=
].
{lo panzi be do ku bilm=
a sei se sinxa}
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno}
<=
/p>
The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IM=
PLICATIVE immediately above, except that the factuality of the inference de=
rived from the underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples:
His kids may be ill [i.e., as implied by some other =
fact such as his staying home from work].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa sei cumki}
{=
lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki}
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/cE=
Wok4YC7fkJ.
=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_132_31329014.1356874037532--