Received: from mail-qc0-f191.google.com ([209.85.216.191]:33326) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TpIww-0000RR-8s; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:29:22 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f191.google.com with SMTP id h29sf7026125qcu.28 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:29:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tE24BQ35x3+nhmBLydxXKGChIKGcFUJxWyRq5C3ulQk=; b=ru8O4cN5air3dVL9aBjvz5Jqddcjw2rmoYeNix5gAK075HX8T/ekdPzL/koIbNl4b6 3nTmz9FHWQJrzIjUR9kL9M9opogcG1FQNunIPgtMOxyivXfRPEZu2cPm94YB5zkTV2us 1F31zm+Ck/xNqKwh28GlUpwOHzjPaj82ixszAAVmTreaPDFr4GzwLA92qyLKSmvnY+mI /X7KMoA1bNmd2QzmzUKcmdihHLcMTb9ogxrV8+TfAKnGyvOUen0lcHA3Rx8DjkWnk8GB LETnghG22UhGTQJDESVEFm94h406idqLJQBUYTS7STKztuoZyk3/1wXNt+r5ZEPlnUeb +aRw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tE24BQ35x3+nhmBLydxXKGChIKGcFUJxWyRq5C3ulQk=; b=PfcdtIucj2BYB0C+orZaDcsYrs0QKvzRXTfeTA2DSxpAdJGDTtLJEUMdUr8XBzfxFQ we5k0wr7uCKjoju47f2STb8dZ8Lt/L1XfC3SKXHfewO0+ItQ8QeU2wifAYfUK31tRq4W D07QFFQqz4iMjd9fVNX9XnZhu2ql4JVfK1kJrJY4OZG5Ar47fc08dsQURjoV8aaMmHY9 bEZ/+gzLNjnu6J9tYztVMCrdDG5r7okXzxBN+u4J/+hTZi+cpVK8a8HSM9fiXsaRAozz XS6lYPRWxl1lWQB12TwRvotlSSrl095FwzYpmQtwpmRikhnd46tSA+Zb1wM8kPZzOprP ihUw== X-Received: by 10.49.63.164 with SMTP id h4mr5683720qes.39.1356874143658; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:29:03 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.127.142 with SMTP id ng14ls5295693qeb.61.gmail; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:29:03 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.71.169 with SMTP id w9mr5781576qeu.7.1356874142988; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:29:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 05:29:02 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <6e711851-b9aa-4560-b416-7f56924a0480@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <502A81EB.2000005@gmail.com> <502A9A2C.20606@gmail.com> <55e70b7d-e835-423b-8557-8ae88b88a4e2@googlegroups.com> <504112FA.4010001@gmail.com> <5041FE65.9030902@gmx.de> <5f11ab31-5816-474c-84cb-c0b50e6aa3aa@googlegroups.com> <74daaf70-4652-4b75-85fa-dc838f155234@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_677_11837164.1356874142720" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_677_11837164.1356874142720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for formatting problems. Reposting. *This is an abridged extract from Ithkuil grammar.* *Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often=20 impossible to drop out words that are known from context anyway. Therefore,= =20 the translations to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes this.= * *Again note that you might wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I= =20 don't care.* * * 5.2.1=20 FAC The Factual The FACTUAL mood signifies that the factuality of the speaker=92s statement= =20 is certain and that there either is no underlying presupposition to the=20 statement, or if there is, its factuality is also certain or has no bearing= =20 on the factuality of the statement. Examples: His kids are ill. [i.e., it is known he has kids and it is known they are= =20 ill] =20 {lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} 5.2.2=20 SUB The Subjunctive The SUBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or=20 implicit presupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the=20 factuality of the speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain= ,=20 the specific nuance of factuality intended being subject to the particular= =20 Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with=20 English =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction t= hat an=20 explicit or implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples: Maybe his kids are ill. [i.e., it is known that he has kids but it is not= =20 known whether they are ill] {lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} 5.2.3=20 ASM The Assumptive The ASSUMPTIVE mood functions identically to the FACTUAL except that the=20 factuality of an underlying presupposition is unknown. It therefore conveys= =20 an act, state, or event whose factuality is dependent on whether something= =20 else is factual, thus corresponding to certain usages of English =91maybe= =92=20 and =91will=92 (where =91will=92 primarily conveys possibility, not future = tense).=20 As with all moods, the specific translation is subject to the particular=20 Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Examples: His kids=92ll be ill OR If he has kids, they are ill. [i.e., it is unknown= =20 whether he has kids, but if he does, they are certainly ill.] {lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} 5.2.4=20 SPC The Speculative The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of both the=20 presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its translation into= =20 English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes corresponding to=20 =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times corresponding to = the=20 auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to those above: Maybe his kids are ill [i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but if he does,= =20 they may be ill]. {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} 5.2.5=20 COU The Counterfactive The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 presupposition is false or unreal but that the factuality of the statement= =20 would otherwise be true. It thus corresponds to the English construction of= =20 auxiliary =91would=92 or =91would have=92 in its use to show counterfactual= ity=20 (i.e., what would have been if a false presupposition had been true).=20 Again, the specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and=20 Validation associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those=20 above. His kids would be (would have been) ill [i.e., if he had kids they would be= =20 ill, but he doesn=92t]. {lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} 5.2.6=20 HYP The Hypothetical The HYPOTHETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 presupposition is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statement= =20 itself is uncertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of=20 auxiliary =91might have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality (i= .e.,=20 what might have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the= =20 specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation=20 associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those above. His kids might=92ve been ill [if he had kids, but he doesn=92t, so we=92ll = never=20 know]. {lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} 5.2.7=20 IPL The Implicative The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 presupposition determines the factuality of the statement and that the=20 relationship between the two need not necessarily be a direct=20 cause-and-effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from which the=20 speaker infers the statement from the underlying presupposition. In=20 grammatical analysis, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.= =94=20 Examples are shown below. His kids are (must be) ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his= =20 staying home from work]. {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa} {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno} 5.2.8=20 ASC The Ascriptive The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IMPLICATIVE immediately=20 above, except that the factuality of the inference derived from the=20 underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples: His kids may be ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his=20 staying home from work]. {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa sei cumki} {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki} --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/z36q10nWPXwJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_677_11837164.1356874142720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for formatting problems. Reposting.

= This is an abridged extract from Ithkuil grammar.
Note tha= t Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often impossible to drop= out words that are known from context anyway. Therefore, the translations = to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes this.
Again note that you might wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I d= on't care.



5.2.1
FAC
The Factual
The FACTUAL mood signifies that= the factuality of the speaker=92s statement is certain and that there eith= er is no underlying presupposition to the statement, or if there is, its fa= ctuality is also certain or has no bearing on the factuality of the stateme= nt. Examples:

His kids are ill. [i.e., it is known= he has kids and it is known they are ill]         &nbs= p;
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}


5.2.2
SUB
The Subjunctive
The S= UBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or implicit pr= esupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the factuality of the= speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain, the specific nu= ance of factuality intended being subject to the particular Bias and Valida= tion associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with English =91may,=92 = =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction that an explicit or = implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples:
Maybe his kids are ill. [i.e., it is known that he has kids but= it is not known whether they are ill]
{lo sei fatci panzi be do = ku bilma sei cumki}

5.2.3
ASM
The Assump= tive
The ASSUMPTIVE mood functions identically to the FACTUAL exc= ept that the factuality of an underlying presupposition is unknown. It ther= efore conveys an act, state, or event whose factuality is dependent on whet= her something else is factual, thus corresponding to certain usages of Engl= ish =91maybe=92 and =91will=92 (where =91will=92 primarily conveys possibil= ity, not future tense). As with all moods, the specific translation is subj= ect to the particular Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Example= s:

His kids=92ll be ill OR If he has kids, they ar= e ill. [i.e., it is unknown whether he has kids, but if he does, they are c= ertainly ill.]
{lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}


5.2.4
SPC
The Speculative
The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of both the presu= pposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its translation into Englis= h is dependent on the specific context, sometimes corresponding to =91may,= =92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times corresponding to the aux= iliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to those above:
Maybe his kids are ill [i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but= if he does, they may be ill].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki= }

5.2.5
COU
The Counterfactive
The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying pr= esupposition is false or unreal but that the factuality of the statement wo= uld otherwise be true. It thus corresponds to the English construction of a= uxiliary =91would=92 or =91would have=92 in its use to show counterfactuali= ty (i.e., what would have been if a false presupposition had been true). Ag= ain, the specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validat= ion associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those above.

His kids would be (would have been) ill [i.e., if he= had kids they would be ill, but he doesn=92t].
{lo sei na fatci = panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}

5.2.6
HYP
<= div>The Hypothetical
The HYPOTHETICAL mood indicates that the fac= tuality of the underlying presupposition is false or unreal and that the fa= ctuality of the statement itself is uncertain. It thus corresponds to the E= nglish construction of auxiliary =91might have=92 in its use to show possib= le counterfactuality (i.e., what might have been if a false presupposition = had been true). Again, the specific translation is subject to the particula= r Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Compare the examples below = to those above.

His kids might=92ve been ill [if h= e had kids, but he doesn=92t, so we=92ll never know].
{lo sei na = fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki}

5.2.7
IPL
The Implicative
The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the f= actuality of the underlying presupposition determines the factuality of the= statement and that the relationship between the two need not necessarily b= e a direct cause-and-effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from wh= ich the speaker infers the statement from the underlying presupposition. In= grammatical analysis, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.= =94 Examples are shown below.

His kids are (must b= e) ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his staying home from w= ork].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa}
{lo panzi = be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno}

5.2.8
ASC
<= div>The Ascriptive
The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to t= he IMPLICATIVE immediately above, except that the factuality of the inferen= ce derived from the underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples:
=

His kids may be ill [i.e., as implied by some other fac= t such as his staying home from work].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma s= ei se sinxa sei cumki}
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno s= ei cumki}

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/z3= 6q10nWPXwJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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