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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?
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On Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:33:12 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
>
> la gleki wrote: 
> >     The other problem is that the writeups weren't in themselves usable 
> as 
> >     sections for CLL.  They were selma'o and cmavo definitions, perhaps 
> >     suitable for an annotated dictionary that does not exist.  (To be 
> >     accurate, the predecessor for CLL was something called the "selma'o 
> >     catalogue, and the byfy writeups weren't all that bad as submissions 
> to 
> >     such a catalog.  But the catalog gave way to CLL, remaining only as 
> a 
> >     quasi-appendix "index" chapter at the end of the book.  The byfy 
> chunks 
> >     were producing annotated selma'o catalog entries, but no one was 
> >     turning 
> >     those into CLL text). 
> > 
> > 
> > ^ ^ 
> > That's very interesting. I'm sure CLL and the dictionary must approach 
> > each other. 
>  > 
> > vlasisku has short links to CLL chapters mentioning them (probably from 
> > the index you are talking about). 
>
> I have no idea what vlasisku is. 
>
> The printed CLL has an index that is almost 10% of the length of the 
> book.  We put a lot of work into that index, so that people can find 
> things easily.  It worked, too.  But the index is based on paper 
> pagination and thus doesn't port to the web, and it was specific to 
> Microsoft Word of the 1997 vintage (though later versions can read it), 
> making it all but impossible to transfer to current efforts. 
>
> > However, I can't imagine a book being a dictionary at the same time. 
>
> ??? 
>
> Most dictionaries in history have been books.  Paper, binding, etc. 
> There was no real alternative until the last couple of decades. 
>
> > And a dictionary being a reference grammar. 
>
> Most good reference dictionaries INCLUDE a reference grammar, generally 
> in brief form in a chapter at the beginning or the end.  The Lojban 
> reference grammar started as such a chapter intended for the dictionary, 
> and then grew into a full book of its own. 
>
>
> http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/grammar has one on-line form of an 
> English reference grammar, albeit a simplified one. 
>
> More comprehensive reference grammars typically run to several hundred 
> pages and catalog the exceptions to the rules along with the rules 
> themselves. 
>
> > I've never seen such dictionaries for any languages. Have you? 
>
> Yes.  I have dictionaries for around 20 languages from the word-making 
> days. 
>
> I have also seen (and possess) reference grammars, mostly for English, 
> though I have one reference grammar for Chinese recommended by Cowan, 


ta'onaisai can you please explain how gimste was formed? Is it  based on 
english semantics?
Who and how selected sumti places? Was there anybody who looked at e.g. 
Chinese semantics and imported concepts from there?


> and a comparative reference grammar that discusses several dozen 
> languages in more or less the same format of 10-50 page essays. 
>
> I did a study of lexicography in the 1990s to learn how to write a 
> proper dictionary. 
>
> > But this is something that must be discussed further. 
>
> NOTHING "must" be discussed further. 
>
> Things must be DONE, not "discussed".  Discussion is the enemy of 
> getting things done. 
>
> And proposing changes for discussion, as you seem to habitually do, 
> makes paying attention to your proposals antithetical to getting things 
> done. 
>

If you mean helping with CLL 1.1 i already expressed my opinion.

As for rewriting cmavo definitions i dont understand how I can help.
Do you wish i presented a ma'oste with new definitions? what would it 
change?
everyone would ignore it.


> Sorry for being undiplomatic. 
>
> lojbab 
>

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<br><br>On Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:33:12 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; The other problem is that the writeups weren't in th=
emselves usable as
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; sections for CLL. &nbsp;They were selma'o and cmavo =
definitions, perhaps
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; suitable for an annotated dictionary that does not e=
xist. &nbsp;(To be
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; accurate, the predecessor for CLL was something call=
ed the "selma'o
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; catalogue, and the byfy writeups weren't all that ba=
d as submissions to
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a catalog. &nbsp;But the catalog gave way to CL=
L, remaining only as a
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; quasi-appendix "index" chapter at the end of the boo=
k. &nbsp;The byfy chunks
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; were producing annotated selma'o catalog entries, bu=
t no one was
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; turning
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; those into CLL text).
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; ^ ^
<br>&gt; That's very interesting. I'm sure CLL and the dictionary must appr=
oach
<br>&gt; each other.
<br>&nbsp;&gt;
<br>&gt; vlasisku has short links to CLL chapters mentioning them (probably=
 from
<br>&gt; the index you are talking about).
<br>
<br>I have no idea what vlasisku is.
<br>
<br>The printed CLL has an index that is almost 10% of the length of the=20
<br>book. &nbsp;We put a lot of work into that index, so that people can fi=
nd=20
<br>things easily. &nbsp;It worked, too. &nbsp;But the index is based on pa=
per=20
<br>pagination and thus doesn't port to the web, and it was specific to=20
<br>Microsoft Word of the 1997 vintage (though later versions can read it),=
=20
<br>making it all but impossible to transfer to current efforts.
<br>
<br>&gt; However, I can't imagine a book being a dictionary at the same tim=
e.
<br>
<br>???
<br>
<br>Most dictionaries in history have been books. &nbsp;Paper, binding, etc=
.=20
<br>There was no real alternative until the last couple of decades.
<br>
<br>&gt; And a dictionary being a reference grammar.
<br>
<br>Most good reference dictionaries INCLUDE a reference grammar, generally=
=20
<br>in brief form in a chapter at the beginning or the end. &nbsp;The Lojba=
n=20
<br>reference grammar started as such a chapter intended for the dictionary=
,=20
<br>and then grew into a full book of its own.
<br>
<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/grammar" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://oxforddictionaries.com/<wbr>words/grammar</a> has one on-line for=
m of an=20
<br>English reference grammar, albeit a simplified one.
<br>
<br>More comprehensive reference grammars typically run to several hundred=
=20
<br>pages and catalog the exceptions to the rules along with the rules=20
<br>themselves.
<br>
<br>&gt; I've never seen such dictionaries for any languages. Have you?
<br>
<br>Yes. &nbsp;I have dictionaries for around 20 languages from the word-ma=
king days.
<br>
<br>I have also seen (and possess) reference grammars, mostly for English,=
=20
<br>though I have one reference grammar for Chinese recommended by Cowan, <=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>ta'onaisai can you please explain how gimst=
e was formed? Is it &nbsp;based on english semantics?</div><div>Who and how=
 selected sumti places? Was there anybody who looked at e.g. Chinese semant=
ics and imported concepts from there?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>and a comparative reference grammar that discusses several dozen=20
<br>languages in more or less the same format of 10-50 page essays.
<br>
<br>I did a study of lexicography in the 1990s to learn how to write a=20
<br>proper dictionary.
<br>
<br>&gt; But this is something that must be discussed further.
<br>
<br>NOTHING "must" be discussed further.
<br>
<br>Things must be DONE, not "discussed". &nbsp;Discussion is the enemy of=
=20
<br>getting things done.
<br>
<br>And proposing changes for discussion, as you seem to habitually do,=20
<br>makes paying attention to your proposals antithetical to getting things=
=20
<br>done.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you mean helping with CLL 1.1 i alr=
eady expressed my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>As for rewriting cmavo =
definitions i dont understand how I can help.</div><div>Do you wish i prese=
nted a ma'oste with new definitions? what would it change?</div><div>everyo=
ne would ignore it.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft: 1ex;">
<br>Sorry for being undiplomatic.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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yNVDuTdtYJ</a>.<br />=20
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