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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?
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On Monday, December 31, 2012 3:33:32 AM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
>
> la gleki wrote: 
> > ta'onaisai can you please explain how gimste was formed? Is it  based on 
> > english semantics? 
> > Who and how selected sumti places? Was there anybody who looked at e.g. 
> > Chinese semantics and imported concepts from there? 
>
> Not this week.  Maybe after the 25th anniversary LogFest. 
>
> >     and a comparative reference grammar that discusses several dozen 
> >     languages in more or less the same format of 10-50 page essays. 
> > 
> >     I did a study of lexicography in the 1990s to learn how to write a 
> >     proper dictionary. 
> > 
> >      > But this is something that must be discussed further. 
> > 
> >     NOTHING "must" be discussed further. 
> > 
> >     Things must be DONE, not "discussed".  Discussion is the enemy of 
> >     getting things done. 
> > 
> >     And proposing changes for discussion, as you seem to habitually do, 
> >     makes paying attention to your proposals antithetical to getting 
> things 
> >     done. 
> > 
> > If you mean helping with CLL 1.1 i already expressed my opinion. 
>
> I have no particular reason to care about your opinion. 
>
> I was referring mostly to two threads you have initiated in the past 
> week, one proposing a complete change in the organization's priorities 
> for documentation when you clearly don't know what those priorities are 
> and why they were chosen.  The other is the one with subject line: 
> Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds. 
> to which you made no less than 7 posts on a topic that clearly sounds 
> like a change proposal without waiting for anyone else to respond.  And 
> you invoke idiosyncrasies of TLI Loglan, guaspi and Ithkuil, as if they 
> have some relevance to Lojban.  They don't. 
>
> No one is stopping you from writing Lojban with all manner of 
> idiosyncratic experimental cmavo derived from all sorts of weird 
> sources.  But I won't understand such Lojban, and I won't even try, if I 
> am running into a lot of experimental stuff.  Meanwhile, experimental 
> stuff is just that - experimental.  It will not be included in the 
> formal documentation of the language, either 1.1 or 2.0, and probably 
> not in any teaching materials, either. 
>

How can a language without defined system of subjunctives exists?
Subjunctives are absent in Lojban. It's not a change.
 

>
> > As for rewriting cmavo definitions i dont understand how I can help. 
>
> If you don't understand, then probably you cannot help.  No one has time 
> to figure out how to enable others to help.  The current situation, 
> alas, is one in which one single person has to do a lot of work and 
> serves as a bottleneck until they have time to get done.  But all other 
> approaches that we've tried have failed, because people with limited 
> time are more interested in discussing than in doing. 
>
> > Do you wish i presented a ma'oste with new definitions? 
>
> No. 
>
> > what would it change? 
> > everyone would ignore it. 
>
> I hope so. 
>
> I don't want any change to the cmavo list. 
>

You told earlier in this thread that cmavo definitions were broken. Are you 
denying it now?

>
> The concept of our baselines is that things DON'T change without a good 
> reason, and eventually that only changes will be officially adopted 
> after seeing lots of people actually use them in fluent conversation or 
> text, rather than talking about them as proposals for fiat change.  If 
> your change is sufficiently non-evolutionary that it cannot be 
> introduced by usage without explanation (or maybe with minimal 
> explanation entirely in Lojban), it probably won't catch on. 
>
> lojbab 
> -- 
> Bob LeChevalier    loj...@lojban.org <javascript:>    www.lojban.org 
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 
>
>

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------=_Part_715_1581955.1356936016522
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<br><br>On Monday, December 31, 2012 3:33:32 AM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; ta'onaisai can you please explain how gimste was formed? Is it &nb=
sp;based on
<br>&gt; english semantics?
<br>&gt; Who and how selected sumti places? Was there anybody who looked at=
 e.g.
<br>&gt; Chinese semantics and imported concepts from there?
<br>
<br>Not this week. &nbsp;Maybe after the 25th anniversary LogFest.
<br>
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; and a comparative reference grammar that discusses s=
everal dozen
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; languages in more or less the same format of 10-50 p=
age essays.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; I did a study of lexicography in the 1990s to learn =
how to write a
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; proper dictionary.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; But this is something that must be discus=
sed further.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; NOTHING "must" be discussed further.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Things must be DONE, not "discussed". &nbsp;Discussi=
on is the enemy of
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; getting things done.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; And proposing changes for discussion, as you seem to=
 habitually do,
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; makes paying attention to your proposals antithetica=
l to getting things
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; done.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; If you mean helping with CLL 1.1 i already expressed my opinion.
<br>
<br>I have no particular reason to care about your opinion.
<br>
<br>I was referring mostly to two threads you have initiated in the past=20
<br>week, one proposing a complete change in the organization's priorities=
=20
<br>for documentation when you clearly don't know what those priorities are=
=20
<br>and why they were chosen. &nbsp;The other is the one with subject line:
<br>Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.
<br>to which you made no less than 7 posts on a topic that clearly sounds=
=20
<br>like a change proposal without waiting for anyone else to respond. &nbs=
p;And=20
<br>you invoke idiosyncrasies of TLI Loglan, guaspi and Ithkuil, as if they=
=20
<br>have some relevance to Lojban. &nbsp;They don't.
<br>
<br>No one is stopping you from writing Lojban with all manner of=20
<br>idiosyncratic experimental cmavo derived from all sorts of weird=20
<br>sources. &nbsp;But I won't understand such Lojban, and I won't even try=
, if I=20
<br>am running into a lot of experimental stuff. &nbsp;Meanwhile, experimen=
tal=20
<br>stuff is just that - experimental. &nbsp;It will not be included in the=
=20
<br>formal documentation of the language, either 1.1 or 2.0, and probably=
=20
<br>not in any teaching materials, either.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How can a language without defined sys=
tem of subjunctives exists?</div><div>Subjunctives are absent in Lojban. It=
's not a change.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; As for rewriting cmavo definitions i dont understand how I can hel=
p.
<br>
<br>If you don't understand, then probably you cannot help. &nbsp;No one ha=
s time=20
<br>to figure out how to enable others to help. &nbsp;The current situation=
,=20
<br>alas, is one in which one single person has to do a lot of work and=20
<br>serves as a bottleneck until they have time to get done. &nbsp;But all =
other=20
<br>approaches that we've tried have failed, because people with limited=20
<br>time are more interested in discussing than in doing.
<br>
<br>&gt; Do you wish i presented a ma'oste with new definitions?
<br>
<br>No.
<br>
<br>&gt; what would it change?
<br>&gt; everyone would ignore it.
<br>
<br>I hope so.
<br>
<br>I don't want any change to the cmavo list.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You told earlier in this thread that c=
mavo definitions were broken. Are you denying it now?</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>The concept of our baselines is that things DON'T change without a good=
=20
<br>reason, and eventually that only changes will be officially adopted=20
<br>after seeing lots of people actually use them in fluent conversation or=
=20
<br>text, rather than talking about them as proposals for fiat change. &nbs=
p;If=20
<br>your change is sufficiently non-evolutionary that it cannot be=20
<br>introduced by usage without explanation (or maybe with minimal=20
<br>explanation entirely in Lojban), it probably won't catch on.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br>--=20
<br>Bob LeChevalier &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" =
gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"UD7QZNte-kEJ">loj...@lojban.org</a> &nbsp; &nbsp;<=
a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">www.lojban.org</a>
<br>President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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