Received: from mail-gh0-f186.google.com ([209.85.160.186]:52272) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TpltD-0004Rm-Os; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:29 -0800 Received: by mail-gh0-f186.google.com with SMTP id f11sf6459011ghb.3 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=g8UjwEPgMiGOBtK8qO6OkVzHogqVzD2J0p9nnHkzd3Y=; b=u8V9mQVxDV4InJKZ7A25ilqEeCZClIZLQ5rGk489Uy2k4pzLsFFL0xXKXbtP1wfaaL 0bg89lZtejr0Slp6evv7IOM3+w/lcNOnf24iQePMR8vbOzLw0uQgTiPafom8MK9rxkva 8WAhYwf24i0kmK7v6salLp5JT7EnTMJaq9osJJhv/mB1KYUKCZtDjnWdsxAIKrvOECOn FqY2NsKkMY/K38XC2FePjSuz09LdCqjSzuCFIV+tWfoQM7uTLmubak3bi6uhpl28Srwo B7Eshn5CqOdCGLe+aANeiRgY3WCAsdQrNPgv5cnARTaHdK0Xboe4UUXSenBtvBC8ZawQ 3ZBA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=g8UjwEPgMiGOBtK8qO6OkVzHogqVzD2J0p9nnHkzd3Y=; b=vIaM0lHVzPiOH7iV/Ukx7drAchUoFuacZ6M5UP96Lcfd51Fa61V0wnaQzolmW1oBs0 1eO/jYbfT+6yhmYJhkA4mImCPSescRYV4XAGFvDc7A8t32EL0T3BssGl6BW6gJod6Leo wfUTrN/KBgbmeJgOflRiYRoQyhQhw3+84XgZQ2YUEdpKFUqRnab9AWR7GqfoFh7lqc+Q dlNgpG15ft72LF4QwJ0hOJVBhr/OAJsRm4UM25ASdxUTgL1aRvuHRnYVwZsDcwO6JYrT 4XH2hZIhRUWVVVd3ZEh84kG+FJ2p5+MnMiCjtmPrjt2EsA+ICdIptzBuyLeh/UkRuIcT Hmuw== X-Received: by 10.50.216.170 with SMTP id or10mr11441227igc.15.1356985389288; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.150.172 with SMTP id uj12ls9468915igb.29.gmail; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:07 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.80.41 with SMTP id o9mr6132499pax.4.1356985387705; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:07 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.80.41 with SMTP id o9mr6132498pax.4.1356985387692; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f47.google.com (mail-pb0-f47.google.com [209.85.160.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e1si8390992paz.0.2012.12.31.12.23.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.47; Received: by mail-pb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id un1so7165047pbc.34 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.134.232 with SMTP id pn8mr128735220pbb.47.1356985387558; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.15.70 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:22:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Alex Rozenshteyn Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:22:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Secondary meaning of {cevni} To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10c861fda6de04d22bc7a4 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b10c861fda6de04d22bc7a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, it just means that if I wanted to talk about a god who existed whether or not ey was worshipped I'd need to use a zi'evla or {cevni be zi'o}. A priest might call the Christian god {lo cevni be zi'o bei roda}. Even if you don't like philosophy, this is still a linguistic issue. In English, the Goa'uld are *not* gods, even though they are worshiped as gods; in lojban (assuming your definition as canonical, which makes sense) they *are* gods *because* they are worshiped as such. On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > Meh. I don't have any truck with philosophers in general. > > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> Seems like this would interact nicely with the setting of *American Gods*, >> where {lo cevni be noda} are literally dying mostly because {noda ra cevni}. >> >> I think some theist philosophers would disagree with your definition, >> though; it's, in a sense, very anthropocentric; {pu ji'a sai lo nu zasti lo >> remna ku la .jegvon. ze'e ca cevni fi ro da} >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >>> >>>> So it seems like your notion of {cevni} focuses more centrally on >>>> worship and dominion than on divinity. >>>> >>> >>> No, it focus entirely on status. Their servants thought they were gods, >>> we know they aren't. If someone think that X is god, then to that person, >>> {da cevni}. If someone else does not think X is a god, or alternatively >>> /knows/ that X isn't, hen to /that/ person, {da na cevni}. >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM, .arpis. wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Which is why I say misleading and not incorrect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, {la'oi Goa'uld cevni xu} by your definition (ignore if you >>>>>> haven't seen Stargate SG-1)? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> {.i go'i jenai go'i .i na cevni mi to fangypre po'o toi .i cevni lo >>>>> gy. remna selfu} >>>>> Yes and no. Not gods to me (just aliens), but gods to their human >>>>> servants. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:00 PM, .arpis. < >>>>>>> rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then I believe that the jbovlaste definition of {cevni} is >>>>>>>> misleading: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Definition: x1 is a/the god/deity of people(s)/religion x2 with dominion >>>>>>>> over x3 [sphere]; x1 is divine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> note the secondary definition. I would consider angels to be divine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, then you're using a different sense of the word "divine" than >>>>>>> jbovlaste is, because the sense of "divine" in the English definition of >>>>>>> {cevni} is "(of or pertaining to a god): deific, godlike, godly", whereas >>>>>>> you seem to be meaning "(eternal, holy): hallowed, holy, sacred". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Even demons, and if you stretch the meaning /really/ far, djinn. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 1:28 PM, .arpis. < >>>>>>>>>> rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> xu se cumki smuni lo ka ce'u ge angeli gi cevni >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> {cevni} can refer to many different things, but not angels. Gods, >>>>>>>>>> goddesses, demi-god(esse)s, oni, and so on and so forth. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But not angels. Angels are not gods, they aren't even god-like. >>>>>>>>>> Except for maybe the archangels, they're barely above humans, and in many >>>>>>>>>> ways are lower on the totem pole (like the complete lack of free will, >>>>>>>>>> emotion, or creativity, for example). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alex R >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --047d7b10c861fda6de04d22bc7a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, it just means that if I wanted to talk about a = god who existed whether or not ey was worshipped I'd need to use a zi&#= 39;evla or {cevni be zi'o}. A priest might call the Christian god {lo c= evni be zi'o bei roda}.

Even if you don't like philosophy, this is still a linguistic= issue. In English, the Goa'uld are not gods, even though they a= re worshiped as gods; in lojban (assuming your definition as canonical, whi= ch makes sense) they are gods because they are worshiped as s= uch.


On Mon,= Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Meh. I don't have any truck with philoso= phers in general.


On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com= > wrote:
Seems like this would = interact nicely with the setting of American Gods, where {lo cevni b= e noda} are literally dying mostly because {noda ra cevni}.

I think some theist philosophers would disagree with your definit= ion, though; it's, in a sense, very anthropocentric; {pu ji'a sai l= o nu zasti lo remna ku la .jegvon. ze'e ca cevni fi ro da}


On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
On Sun, Dec = 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
So it seems like your notion of {cevni} focuses more centr= ally on worship and dominion than on divinity.
=

No, it focus entirely on status. Their servants thought they were = gods, we know they aren't. If someone think that X is god, then to that= person, {da cevni}. If someone else does not think X is a god, or alternat= ively /knows/ that X isn't, hen to /that/ person, {da na cevni}.
=A0
On Sun, Dec 3= 0, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrot= e:
On Sun, Dec = 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Which is why I say misleading and not incorrect.
<= br>
Also, {la'oi Goa'uld cevni xu} by your definition (ignore = if you haven't seen Stargate SG-1)?

{.i go'i jenai go'i .i na cevni mi to fangypre po'o toi .i = cevni lo gy. remna selfu}
Yes and no. Not gods to me (just aliens), but gods to their human servants.=
=A0
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:00 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
Then I believe that the jbovlaste definition of {cevni} is= misleading:
  Definition: x1 is a/the god/deity of people(s)/relig=
ion x2 with dominion
       over x3 [sphere]; x1 is divine.
note the secondary definition. = I would consider angels to be divine.

= Well, then you're using a different sense of the word "divine"= ; than jbovlaste is, because the sense of "divine" in the English= definition of {cevni} is "(of or pertaining to a god): deific, godlik= e, godly", whereas you seem to be meaning "(eternal, holy): hallo= wed, holy, sacred".

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Sun, Dec = 30, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrot= e:
Even demons, and if yo= u stretch the meaning /really/ far, djinn.


On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Sun, Dec = 30, 2012 at 1:28 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
xu se cumki smuni lo ka ce'u ge angeli gi cevni

<= /div>{cevni} can refer to many different things, but not angels. Gods, godd= esses, demi-god(esse)s, oni, and so on and so forth.

But not angels.= Angels are not gods, they aren't even god-like. Except for maybe the a= rchangels, they're barely above humans, and in many ways are lower on t= he totem pole (like the complete lack of free will, emotion, or creativity,= for example).

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )



--
mu'o = mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father= . :D )

--
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--
= mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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