Sorry, to intrude phi= losophy (or theology) into this, but a case can be made that the only actua= l god has no worshipers, since all have worshiped imperfect simulcra of it = -- and always will, even though they keep trying to get it right. It = is hard to worhsip the ineffable without effing a bit -- and thus missing.<= br>

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmai= l.com>
To: lojban@g= ooglegroups.com
Sent:= Monday, December 31, 2012 2:32 PM
Subjec= t: Re: [lojban] Secondary meaning of {cevni}

On Mo= n, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote= :

Well, it just means that if I wanted to talk about a = god who existed whether or not ey was worshipped I'd need to use a zi'evla = or {cevni be zi'o}. A priest might call the Christian god {lo cevni be zi'o= bei roda}.

Is there a such thing as a god which does= not have worshipers? Granted, there are gods which do have worshipers /now= /, but they did at one point, and I know of no gods that have never, at any= time, had any worshipers at all.

<= div>
Even if you don't like philosophy, this is still a linguistic issue. = In English, the Goa'uld are not gods, even though they are worshiped= as gods; in lojban (assuming your definition as canonical, which makes sen= se) they are gods because they are worshiped as such.*

*... to the people who worship them.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Meh. I don't have any truck wi= th philosophers in general.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wr= ote:

Seems li= ke this would interact nicely with the setting of American Gods, whe= re {lo cevni be noda} are literally dying mostly because {noda ra cevni}.
I think some theist philosophers would disagree with your definit= ion, though; it's, in a sense, very anthropocentric; {pu ji'a sai lo nu zas= ti lo remna ku la .jegvon. ze'e ca cevni fi ro da}

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:

So it seems like your notion of {cevni} focuses more centr= ally on worship and dominion than on divinity.
=

No, it focus entirely on status. Their servants thought they were = gods, we know they aren't. If someone think that X is god, then to that per= son, {da cevni}. If someone else does not think X is a god, or alternativel= y /knows/ that X isn't, hen to /that/ person, {da na cevni}.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Jonathan J= ones <eyeonus@gmail.= com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM, .arpis. &= lt;rpglover64+jbobau@= gmail.com> wrote:

Which is why I say misleading and not incorrect.
<= br>
Also, {la'oi Goa'uld cevni xu} by your definition (ignore if you h= aven't seen Stargate SG-1)?

{.i go'i jenai go'i .i na cevni mi to fangypre po'o toi .i cevni lo gy.= remna selfu}
Yes and no. Not gods to me (just aliens), but gods to their human servants.=

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Jo= nathan Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:00 P= M, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

Then I believe that the jbovlaste definition of {cevni} is= misleading:
Definition: x1 is a/the god/deity of people(s)/relig= ion x2 with dominion over x3 [sphere]; x1 is divine.
note the secondary definition. = I would consider angels to be divine.

= Well, then you're using a different sense of the word "divine" than jbovlas= te is, because the sense of "divine" in the English definition of {cevni} i= s "(of or pertaining to a god): deific, godlike, godly", whereas you seem t= o be meaning "(eternal, holy): hallowed, holy, sacred".

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:

Even dem= ons, and if you stretch the meaning /really/ far, djinn.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 1:28 PM, .arpis. &= lt;rpglover64+jbobau@= gmail.com> wrote:

xu se cumki smuni lo ka ce'u ge angeli gi cevni

{cevni} can refer to many different things, but not angels. Gods, goddesse= s, demi-god(esse)s, oni, and so on and so forth.

But not angels. Ang= els are not gods, they aren't even god-like. Except for maybe the archangel= s, they're barely above humans, and in many ways are lower on the totem pol= e (like the complete lack of free will, emotion, or creativity, for example= ).

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your fa= ther. :D )

--
mu'o mi'e= .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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= mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .= arpis.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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Alex R
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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