On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:31 P= M, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 3:52 PM, John E Cli= fford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sorry, to intrude philosophy (or theology) into this, but a case c= an be made that the only actual god has no worshipers, since all have worsh= iped imperfect simulcra of it -- and always will, even though they keep try= ing to get it right.=A0 It is hard to worhsip the ineffable without effing = a bit -- and thus missing.

And that is precisely why I don'= ;t have truck with philosophy. I see absolutely no point in discussing thin= gs which can not be proven one way or the other. God is unknowable in every= aspect, number, gender, temperament, existence. There is no way for us to = find out anything about the true nature of (the) god(s), and so there's= no point that I can see in bothering with trying. And like pretty much eve= rything ever thought of by philosophers, if and when we do figure out a way= to make such things knowable, we'll probably find out that all the phi= losophers were wrong.

Also, "the only actual god" sounds very Judeo-Christian. How = could possibly know whether lo cevni is singular? Maybe there's three, = or 20, or a million. The only thing we can say we know for certain is that = we don't know anything.

Sorry, I forgot to state my point.<= br>
When I speak of gods, I don't bother about what is actual, speci= fically because there's literally no what to know what that is. I have = my own beliefs about the matter, of course, but I don't pretend to thin= k that my beliefs are the definite truth. So, when I talk about gods, I tal= k about beings like Thor, Ra, Gaeia, Minerva, and Pluto; beings which more = than likely do not now and never did exist, but which at some point in time= - whether or not "now" is part of that time frame- were believed = to be the real thing by somebody.

So, my point is, I feel pretty safe in my assumption that the vast majo= rity about lo cevni will be about those which are believed in, and not the = ineffable actuality, and have no problem with forcing those who do wish to = talk about the ineffable actuality in Lojban to use lo cevni be zi'o to= do so.

=A0
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
<= span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:32 PM
Subject:= Re: [lojban] Secondary meaning of {cevni}

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, it just means that if I wanted to talk about a = god who existed whether or not ey was worshipped I'd need to use a zi&#= 39;evla or {cevni be zi'o}. A priest might call the Christian god {lo c= evni be zi'o bei roda}.

Is there a such thing as a god which does= not have worshipers? Granted, there are gods which do have worshipers /now= /, but they did at one point, and I know of no gods that have never, at any= time, had any worshipers at all.
=A0

Even if you don't like philosophy, this is still a linguistic iss= ue. In English, the Goa'uld are not gods, even though they are w= orshiped as gods; in lojban (assuming your definition as canonical, which m= akes sense) they are gods because they are worshiped as such.= *

*... to the people who worship them.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Meh. I don't have any truck with philosophers in general.
=

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpg= lover64@gmail.com> wrote:

Seems like this would interact nicely with t= he setting of American Gods, where {lo cevni be noda} are literally = dying mostly because {noda ra cevni}.

I think some theist philosophers would disagree with your definit= ion, though; it's, in a sense, very anthropocentric; {pu ji'a sai l= o nu zasti lo remna ku la .jegvon. ze'e ca cevni fi ro da}

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jonathan= Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:

So it seems like your notion of {cevni} focuses more centr= ally on worship and dominion than on divinity.
=

No, it focus entirely on status. Their servants thought they were = gods, we know they aren't. If someone think that X is god, then to that= person, {da cevni}. If someone else does not think X is a god, or alternat= ively /knows/ that X isn't, hen to /that/ person, {da na cevni}.
=A0
On S= un, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@g= mail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

Which is why I say misleading and not incorrect.
<= br>
Also, {la'oi Goa'uld cevni xu} by your definition (ignore = if you haven't seen Stargate SG-1)?

{.i go'i jenai go'i .i na cevni mi to fangypre po'o toi .i = cevni lo gy. remna selfu}
Yes and no. Not gods to me (just aliens), but gods to their human servants.=
=A0

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Jonathan Jones <= eye= onus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:00 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

Then I believe that the jbovlaste definition of {cevni} is= misleading:
Definition: x1 is a/the god/deity of people(s)/relig= ion x2 with dominion over x3 [sphere]; x1 is divine.
note the secondary definition. = I would consider angels to be divine.

= Well, then you're using a different sense of the word "divine"= ; than jbovlaste is, because the sense of "divine" in the English= definition of {cevni} is "(of or pertaining to a god): deific, godlik= e, godly", whereas you seem to be meaning "(eternal, holy): hallo= wed, holy, sacred".

On = Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@g= mail.com> wrote:

Even demons, and if you stretch the meaning = /really/ far, djinn.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@= gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 1:28 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

xu se cumki smuni lo ka ce'u ge angeli gi cevni

<= /div>{cevni} can refer to many different things, but not angels. Gods, godd= esses, demi-god(esse)s, oni, and so on and so forth.

But not angels.= Angels are not gods, they aren't even god-like. Except for maybe the a= rchangels, they're barely above humans, and in many ways are lower on t= he totem pole (like the complete lack of free will, emotion, or creativity,= for example).

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )

--
mu'o = mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father= . :D )

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= mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )
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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )
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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )