Received: from mail-qa0-f59.google.com ([209.85.216.59]:53760) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TpxAD-0005uH-2n; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:25:52 -0800 Received: by mail-qa0-f59.google.com with SMTP id p7sf7975871qap.14 for ; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:25:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pLtpQua/f+2ZQKjc0xff7PquREJyZGsst7zCGAlxU4k=; b=vzVi+NsCfXbCgobGRqLhzb5yFyThK6qI40xEGSQ0pIyrfQwdFkUJI2n93ol6Ibq3D8 3SuQthJHr5uBYABxo3UMHl/UjJ4DGRYI9h7ZBJ+OxSwd5XBY90D3uQXcLb1V4imz4OwN U1PJ257WSrv26pdrWHotwtVh7n1LynqIqSik/wwgZe4d0gkPZ0R+LrPLSy4DD/THtnX7 fWqjDHLrPTPr/Os8Ds1DU2276wOqv6tyTUHnNYy7J8aj32fAb6dt3ZNlNPcRtjYAhG8f Dy9moMUb2LDEpVcDaq/DQtSfAH5ipjaup3IXNpeTmq09Kpcri2n9hEwI/lMNpFZRODmn wl/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pLtpQua/f+2ZQKjc0xff7PquREJyZGsst7zCGAlxU4k=; b=z6dtFZlib/pceKs1afJU+xb9Ix9K6SozcQ7RUiKvngkdgnAdwVQcnnDPr5/ESWi5cm et9zqLTJJpFVj1bp5/+5FA8H7ca2uzus8heidfLM2CsgMNM0wKQmqJACzxU/GOdHUDnZ ZaKWM1/97IMTBsP/hOseXmORScs4frdgQhEQIw7Q1rk3GWgUlZ8YXJbmI67hMpNY3HHA ayYkF0ycUobvgOWIXz3LQDYKT3hGt0kSFVMuDzkc9BtdsYSkA9TgrkSwtZ92YpFGNjn3 c5MI4N0bN7/TavUMr6yEeTeJ4tSFbEW08embRHu6fqC2barRP+zYmIIoU44RjpNw6EwV h14w== X-Received: by 10.49.84.167 with SMTP id a7mr6189966qez.11.1357028726489; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:25:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.35.169 with SMTP id i9ls5748799qej.42.gmail; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:25:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.12.238 with SMTP id b14mr6442876qec.18.1357028725133; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:25:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 00:25:24 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <78c1b400-2e12-4597-9148-c432257d63cd@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <50E1D690.6030205@lojban.org> References: <20121227222129.GN7855@samsa.fritz.box> <20121227222753.GG18038@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20121227231105.GO7855@samsa.fritz.box> <20121227232206.GI18038@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20121227232732.GP7855@samsa.fritz.box> <20121227233537.GJ18038@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20121227235946.GQ7855@samsa.fritz.box> <20121228000348.GL18038@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20121228185329.GO18038@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20121228215107.GR7855@samsa.fritz.box> <50DEF2D2.6080309@lojban.org> <50E04A0F.8080408@lojban.org> <80850efe-706f-4afe-8788-77fd6daa6b59@googlegroups.com> <50E05EB8.5040104@lojban.org> <50E0CF4C.1020705@lojban.org> <50E1D690.6030205@lojban.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1898_30070133.1357028724347" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1898_30070133.1357028724347 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, December 31, 2012 10:16:48 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: > > la gleki wrote: > > No one is stopping you from writing Lojban with all manner of > > idiosyncratic experimental cmavo derived from all sorts of weird > > sources. But I won't understand such Lojban, and I won't even try, > > if I > > am running into a lot of experimental stuff. Meanwhile, > experimental > > stuff is just that - experimental. It will not be included in the > > formal documentation of the language, either 1.1 or 2.0, and > probably > > not in any teaching materials, either. > > > > > > How can a language without defined system of subjunctives exists? > > By existing. As most languages do. > > There is no universal that I know of stating that languages must have > "defined systems of subjunctives". > > Subjunctive is an important feature of Romance languages, and is found > in some other IE languages, but isn't common outside IE. The concept is > almost completely fossilized in English (so while there is such a > concept embedded in parts of the language, it isn't especially > productive and thus useful only in explaining these fossilized > exceptions). > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood > "Every language has a formula for the unreal." > > That is the universal, and it doesn't require a "system". > We have da'i for an explicit irrealis marker. Others might be understood > as irrealis (.ianai) XOR and other logical constructs REQUIRE that some > of the clauses therein are false. There are other Lojban usages that > mimic some of the moods mentioned on that Wikipedia page that are > specific to other languages. > > The entire novel "Alice in Wonderland" was translated into Lojban, and > it is about as "unreal" as can be. If a subjunctive was necessary for > such a translation (note that I did NOT use the subjunctive "were", > which is no longer necessary in English), we would have already had to > add it. > > > > Subjunctives are absent in Lojban. It's not a change. > > Of course it is. Adding to the language is a change. We've allowed for > ad-hoc creation of new lujvo and fu'ivla, and left space for > experimental cmavo, but there is no plan to formally adopt/approve any > of them in the near future. (brivla that see lots of actual usage will > of course eventually be added to dictionaries). > I think you haven't read that thread carefully. My last posts has no proposals. In fact it's an integrations of already existing solutions. There is da'i+va'o. There is {cumki} that Robin used. There are TRANSLATIONS from other languages like Loglan and Ithkuil. As for {mu'ei} it's not me who invented them. I just added them to the table so that more people could understand what was going on there. > > > Do you wish i presented a ma'oste with new definitions? > > > > No. > > > > > what would it change? > > > everyone would ignore it. > > > > I hope so. > > > > I don't want any change to the cmavo list. > > > > > > You told earlier in this thread that cmavo definitions were broken. Are > > you denying it now? > > No. I said that cmavo definitions did not exist. The cmavo list was > created primarily for use in the LogFlash flashcard program (as was the > gismu list). Lacking an actual dictionary for these words, when the > language was originally baselined, these lists became the effective > "definitions". But they were recognized to be completely inadequate. > > I was for the longest time trying to write a dictionary, and couldn't > figure out how to significantly improve on the list. Cowan came up with > the concept of a selma'o catalog, which became CLL, as one step. > > CLL was the attempt to provide the grammatical portion of the > definition, defining the selma'o. byfy was tasked with devising the > semantic definition of the cmavo, making reference to CLL as needed (and > byfy assumed the additional task of correcting CLL of its own volition). > It was NOT tasked with adding to or deleting from the cmavo list, > though likely some form of the byfy will eventually look at such > questions AFTER the existing baseline is done, and byfy has the > effective power to make changes if something in the language is so > broken that the definition process cannot be completed without a change > (this was the argument for xorlo). > > It is the intent that such questions, when the come up, will be decided > through usage. So making proposals that are not reflective of actual > language usage is especially non-productive. > I meant creating a spreadsheet with old definitions in one column, definitions proposed by BPFK in another column. Then we can analyse the list and make further improvements to the new definitions. > lojbab > > > -- > Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org > President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/Iul2Jx5xTDIJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_1898_30070133.1357028724347 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, December 31, 2012 10:16:48 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:la gleki wrote:
> No one is stopping you from writing Lojban with all = manner of
> idiosyncratic experimental cmavo derived from all so= rts of weird
> sources. But I won't understand such Lojban, a= nd I won't even try,
> if I
> am running into a lot of experimental stuff. M= eanwhile, experimental
> stuff is just that - experimental. It will not= be included in the
> formal documentation of the language, either 1.1 or = 2.0, and probably
> not in any teaching materials, either.
>
>
> How can a language without defined system of subjunctives exists?

By existing. As most languages do.

There is no universal that I know of stating that languages must have= =20
"defined systems of subjunctives".

Subjunctive is an important feature of Romance languages, and is found= =20
in some other IE languages, but isn't common outside IE. The conc= ept is=20
almost completely fossilized in English (so while there is such a=20
concept embedded in parts of the language, it isn't especially=20
productive and thus useful only in explaining these fossilized exceptio= ns).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood
"Every language has a formula for the unreal."

That is the universal, and it doesn't require a "system".
We have da'i for an explicit irrealis marker. Others might be understoo= d=20
as irrealis (.ianai) XOR and other logical constructs REQUIRE tha= t some=20
of the clauses therein are false. There are other Lojban usages t= hat=20
mimic some of the moods mentioned on that Wikipedia page that are=20
specific to other languages.

The entire novel "Alice in Wonderland" was translated into Lojban, and= =20
it is about as "unreal" as can be. If a subjunctive was necessary= for=20
such a translation (note that I did NOT use the subjunctive "were",=20
which is no longer necessary in English), we would have already had to= =20
add it.

> Subjunctives are absent in Lojban. It's not a change.

Of course it is. Adding to the language is a change. We've = allowed for=20
ad-hoc creation of new lujvo and fu'ivla, and left space for=20
experimental cmavo, but there is no plan to formally adopt/approve any= =20
of them in the near future. (brivla that see lots of actual usage will= =20
of course eventually be added to dictionaries).

I think you haven't read that thread &= nbsp;carefully.

My last posts has no proposals. In fact it's an i= ntegrations of already existing solutions.

There is da'i+va'o. Th= ere is {cumki} that Robin used.

There are TRANSLATIONS from other= languages like Loglan and Ithkuil.

As for {mu'ei} it's not me wh= o invented them. I just added them to the table so that more people could u= nderstand what was going on there.

> > Do you wish i presented a ma'oste with ne= w definitions?
>
> No.
>
> > what would it change?
> > everyone would ignore it.
>
> I hope so.
>
> I don't want any change to the cmavo list.
>
>
> You told earlier in this thread that cmavo definitions were broken= . Are
> you denying it now?

No. I said that cmavo definitions did not exist. The cmavo = list was=20
created primarily for use in the LogFlash flashcard program (as was the= =20
gismu list). Lacking an actual dictionary for these words, when t= he=20
language was originally baselined, these lists became the effective=20
"definitions". But they were recognized to be completely inadequa= te.

I was for the longest time trying to write a dictionary, and couldn't= =20
figure out how to significantly improve on the list. Cowan came u= p with=20
the concept of a selma'o catalog, which became CLL, as one step.

CLL was the attempt to provide the grammatical portion of the=20
definition, defining the selma'o. byfy was tasked with devising t= he=20
semantic definition of the cmavo, making reference to CLL as needed (an= d=20
byfy assumed the additional task of correcting CLL of its own volition)= .=20
It was NOT tasked with adding to or deleting from the cmavo list= ,=20
though likely some form of the byfy will eventually look at such=20
questions AFTER the existing baseline is done, and byfy has the=20
effective power to make changes if something in the language is so=20
broken that the definition process cannot be completed without a change= =20
(this was the argument for xorlo).

It is the intent that such questions, when the come up, will be decided= =20
through usage. So making proposals that are not reflective of actual=20
language usage is especially non-productive.

I meant creating a spreadsheet w= ith old definitions in one column, definitions proposed by BPFK in another = column.

Then we can analyse the list and make further improvement= s to the new definitions.

lojbab

--=20
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org <= a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/Iu= l2Jx5xTDIJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_1898_30070133.1357028724347--