Received: from mail-qa0-f64.google.com ([209.85.216.64]:59973) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TqnET-0000T9-Is; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:40 -0800 Received: by mail-qa0-f64.google.com with SMTP id i13sf9152807qae.29 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xGA5ttTgRrkOTGgKaiWqymn/W8vqFPiIk2YHKxMe0ig=; b=GoQjOl9Z4R1aUfrwW90GPnGQDTzLQUAG9xpdd1MIrjzZUnGV+aJ6zNDaewfusUgifB r4+3xC5Gqh78NiY8eCUs0jn0CXPwEdgFUaXT03HZ0qr3rWeG+tFN8SpTw5iHn1kgEbsS eSu8/ExT0jSLA/dvLfoHMO5Ko/Ci5CMS2Xx8FkJSgrjOVIV3nHRmbEl9mlTbtw600V5o t3zMEuDCtAksdmeYERNNsZlBXt7G0NZZ+9vLmyf2ozkkdA0cM/Q1vrvXQuBHbXCxAbjE aZUp711qGl/8W14OgBx+KWnXEpeWGLbEqKUUa0y/4hvlGRLYINzBMQBfyFji3pVRHP9B s3sQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xGA5ttTgRrkOTGgKaiWqymn/W8vqFPiIk2YHKxMe0ig=; b=eE2cNQwnyow7xV+JdIZFCB+e5AtQneBH4Y2WcHW89qEchTMRQ51e1uqe20rUjK+zv2 MZTPHqWkr89PvW64l7gjznbg94PYQkWrIZS9u5A8GeqCdnAUvEZmKxBAwhf3ctLJeuLF 3wc9alZNvFLsKL3NRyKiBEpSq08n2FTQfKiI0eZK7PfT7KmUBNyy+LH9aFcTDJJDuGHi YL9OT7TNBdebUt0dVSAhFX4MYF9O/Jc+b0IEMS8adT/uDGnn50NUC2p6kRLo7ookwWbJ 0qrNsJd5RbQnH4MZgbW6qvH/fO/7Xgv1EdRg3mkVa3W3hRY+IfwENXw0jxUwJ5vswFnK 6a+w== X-Received: by 10.49.12.97 with SMTP id x1mr8052760qeb.25.1357228877866; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.26.166 with SMTP id m6ls7030662qeg.10.gmail; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.163.136 with SMTP id c8mr2731258icy.6.1357228876468; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.163.136 with SMTP id c8mr2731257icy.6.1357228876441; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f170.google.com (mail-ob0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5si5129977iga.1.2013.01.03.08.01.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id wp18so14082358obc.29 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.32.235 with SMTP id m11mr28884248oei.129.1357228876251; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 08:01:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 09:01:16 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Context and precision (was:Re: [lojban-beginners] Special reference, underspecified) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1f8400c409804d264791b X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8fb1f8400c409804d264791b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (In the event that my comments below spark a discussion, I've moved this to the main list and altered the subject to reflect the topic at hand.) On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > This drastically hinders the precision (in fact it basically makes it > exactly the same as PA lo GISMU), but yes, PA GISMU under this model is an > extremely compact form for a rather uncommon usage. > > But fair enough; at the very least the {pa se pelkre} version is sketchy, > and we'll leave it at that. I'm a firm believer in determinism via context and precision via verbosity. That is, I believe that anything about an expression that can be figured out from the context that expression is in, should be left to context, and that a more precise expression should always, without exception, require more words to express than a similar, less precise one. My reasoning behind both is simply that following those doctrines means we can say things in Lojban more succintly, a definite boon considering the wordiness the language has, IMO. And it's not at all difficult to add {roroi fe'eroroi} to make the context be "always and everywhere". It does, obviously, require more words, but that's in line with the above. > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> The first version is wrong; that says "there exists exactly one yellow >>> haired thing which ..." (Rather, there is a very slightly less >>> controversial version that I tend to subscribe to: "there is exactly one >>> yellow-haired thing that is at all possible to come up in discussion which >>> ..." The point is that the default universe of discourse should be the * >>> universe* of discourse, there shouldn't be anything that be reasonably >>> anticipated to come up in conversation that isn't actually in it.) >>> >> >> I subscribe to the idea that the "universe of discourse" is bound by the >> context that discourse is in, mainly because forcing PA GISMU to mean that >> there is exactly PA things that GISMU makes the construct pretty much >> useless, seeing as statements like that are pretty much always incorrect. >> But this isn't the list to talk about thee issues, being the beginner's >> thread and all. >> >> >>> If you use su'o instead it's not terrible, but really {da} constructs >>> when you don't want nice sharp precision tend to be undesirable, in my >>> experience. >>> >>> At any rate, here I'd probably say {lo se ke pelxu kerfa}. {le} might >>> also be appropriate in this context, but I doubt I'd use it. That said, I >>> think more likely the structure of the discussion would be different among >>> fluent in-real-life Lojban speakers. (Few of these exist; I, for example, >>> am pretty quick on IRC, but am almost completely helpless when it comes to >>> spatial things.) I'd expect a lot of up-front establishment of pronouns, >>> for example. >>> >>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:01 AM, neizyn. wrote: >>>> >>>>> coi >>>>> .i mi'e neizyn. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I'm just a beginnger! but I was wondering about a special >>>>> situation. >>>>> Suppose there's a group of girls with one guy; I'm talking to one of >>>>> the girls, and I make a statement referring to the guy without >>>>> unambiguously referring to him by name or other reference. This is because >>>>> he's the only person in the group like that. Say he's blonde. Is there a >>>>> way I can say that "someone is blond" oooooor 'blonde exists/obtains such >>>>> that x is blonde' ? Better yet, could I use that with some kind of >>>>> reference? >>>>> >>>> >>>> {pa pelxre} == {pa da poi pelkre} => "one X which-is golden-haired" >>>> {pa lo prenu poi pelxre} => "A singular person which-is blonde" >>>> {lo pelxre prenu} => "One or more blonde type-of person" >>>> {ko'a goi (any of the above)} => "It-1, which-is what we will call {any >>>> of the above)" >>>> >>>> I'm sure there's other ways to do it as well, but those are the most >>>> obvious, to me at any rate. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e89a8fb1f8400c409804d264791b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (In the event that my comments below spark a discussion, I've moved thi= s to the main list and altered the subject to reflect the topic at hand.)
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Ian Johnso= n <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
This drastically hinders the precision (in f= act it basically makes it exactly the same as PA lo GISMU), but yes, PA GIS= MU under this model is an extremely compact form for a rather uncommon usag= e.

But fair enough; at the very least the {pa se pelkre} version is sketch= y, and we'll leave it at that.

I'm a firm beli= ever in determinism via context and precision via verbosity. That is, I bel= ieve that anything about an expression that can be figured out from the con= text that expression is in, should be left to context, and that a more prec= ise expression should always, without exception, require more words to expr= ess than a similar, less precise one.

My reasoning behind both is simply that following those doctrines means= we can say things in Lojban more succintly, a definite boon considering th= e wordiness the language has, IMO.

And it's not at all difficult= to add {roroi fe'eroroi} to make the context be "always and every= where". It does, obviously, require more words, but that's in line= with the above.
=A0
mi'e l= a latro'a mu'o

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:


On T= hu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
The first version is wrong; that says "there exists exactly one yellow= haired thing which ..." (Rather, there is a very slightly less contro= versial version that I tend to subscribe to: "there is exactly one yel= low-haired thing that is at all possible to come up in discussion which ...= " The point is that the default universe of discourse should be the universe of discourse, there shouldn't be anything that be reasona= bly anticipated to come up in conversation that isn't actually in it.) =

I subscribe to the idea that the "universe= of discourse" is bound by the context that discourse is in, mainly be= cause forcing PA GISMU to mean that there is exactly PA things that GISMU m= akes the construct pretty much useless, seeing as statements like that are = pretty much always incorrect. But this isn't the list to talk about the= e issues, being the beginner's thread and all.
=A0
If you use su'o instead it's not terrible, but really {da} construc= ts when you don't want nice sharp precision tend to be undesirable, in = my experience.

At any rate, here I'd probably say {lo se ke pel= xu kerfa}. {le} might also be appropriate in this context, but I doubt I= 9;d use it. That said, I think more likely the structure of the discussion = would be different among fluent in-real-life Lojban speakers. (Few of these= exist; I, for example, am pretty quick on IRC, but am almost completely he= lpless when it comes to spatial things.) I'd expect a lot of up-front e= stablishment of pronouns, for example.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:01 AM, neizyn. <<= a href=3D"mailto:sjacket@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sjacket@gmail.com= > wrote:
coi
.i mi'e neizyn.
=A0
Sorry, I'= ;m just a beginnger! but I was wondering about a special situation.
Suppose there's a group of girls with one guy; I'm talking to on= e of the girls, and I make a statement referring to the guy without unambig= uously referring to him by name or other reference. This is because he'= s the only person in the group like that. Say he's blonde. Is there a w= ay=A0I can say that "someone is blond" oooooor 'blonde exists= /obtains such that x is blonde' ? Better yet, could I use that with som= e kind of reference?=A0

{pa pelxre} =3D=3D {pa da poi pelkre} =3D> &= quot;one X which-is golden-haired"
{pa lo prenu poi pelxre} =3D>= "A singular person which-is blonde"
{lo pelxre prenu} =3D>= "One or more blonde type-of person"
{ko'a goi (any of the above)} =3D> "It-1, which-is what we will= call {any of the above)"

I'm sure there's other ways t= o do it as well, but those are the most obvious, to me at any rate.

--
mu'o mi= 9;e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk.= mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D = )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--e89a8fb1f8400c409804d264791b--