Received: from mail-da0-f63.google.com ([209.85.210.63]:54086) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TrvdJ-0003D3-Vs; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:50 -0800 Received: by mail-da0-f63.google.com with SMTP id n34sf10930853dal.28 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=/+jPVx3gzyNs/BN9+mWscb465lyjkrcZo16kw3cZ01Y=; b=qHLMWAB74SgYpq+TQ3/hD4nbcw/mmd4EVIbIEn1JL5eiz+4xVvn3+0R+QOYl81HxYt QOOYmrmbBWQwpUIMCUrDxGEagwZFmCNQnmodY8/q1GQgF2X8pLPjDGd6z81JxMWPwf8k T2hObtoEF3ecKU/zcOpjtzHvZOGLAyz726zuACgP8t7AmxvjxaYIYrg9jV9G1C5yR6e5 KJsViNMvCW0dSuqpFOObMmkskcHOJl8tEG/gmIso28ZpR7+NU60lJCqpAkX7AvS/hYo6 sbHsPOOU986e4iie0Sm+DtdVeKz9Nrif94/LZ+Sj4/5tuA+G0CeeOByXLnDetiYrFRjz Y7sw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=/+jPVx3gzyNs/BN9+mWscb465lyjkrcZo16kw3cZ01Y=; b=gqfwLA0nPQKrPW/Q68qp4KsJtJC/nsKPjQ4ic3rq0w84ZgS3ksND3a4qkPwiYt9Q4z RGiocEBwigdPbBbs1QrtoN/bouBlYTaX76X5fOur13mbFCIIhgRfDcp5D9w+I173NLxu XotpH1MFt1VET8O04tPu4HPmeJW+Tn38W7sptoAVmqs4rfYwzAfiZ6vVSolbi8XKy7vg EBA68yqRTVVAvQzFuF6ZqLf7D2nFUZ/TDl2zcKy89LV2e9J+jE1rtDiXPjvKmzBpDEsJ zjWasXIA11ySxGE4AFGeetcWA17ILNI+vhbo8XuPPBxaBLGfOSwHBnnuCGXEnesBtwVK 1jQA== X-Received: by 10.50.7.198 with SMTP id l6mr1229513iga.3.1357499499525; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:39 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.183.129 with SMTP id em1ls1165310igc.0.gmail; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.110.15 with SMTP id n15mr45963128icp.11.1357499499099; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.110.15 with SMTP id n15mr45963127icp.11.1357499499080; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f41.google.com (mail-oa0-f41.google.com [209.85.219.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wu4si366710igb.3.2013.01.06.11.11.38 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.41; Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id k14so17073063oag.0 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.38.69 with SMTP id e5mr42815855obk.79.1357499498781; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <50E9B27E.1030207@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:11:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] APE: Lojban haiku From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462f0e685cfd04d2a37b7b X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d04462f0e685cfd04d2a37b7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > As far as my haiku is concerned, the "old" interpretation and the "IRC" >> interpretation are near enough in meaning that I don't really feel it needs >> changing, however: >> > > ...They're not at all close in meaning, in fact they're closer to being > opposites than to being the same. The old {broda co'a lo nu brode} has > broda happening when brode begins; the new one has broda beginning when > brode is happening. A trivial example of the difference is if {lo nu brode} > lasts forever in a universe where "forever" extends infinitely in both > directions, then the new version is just {co'a broda} (every event is > simultaneous with an event that lasts forever), while the old version is > nonsensical. > Yes, but we're not talking about hypothetical examples, we're talking specifically about the haiku, as shown by the statement "As far as my haiku is concerned....". In this particular instance, it's "Flowers bloom when Spring begins", versus "Flowers begin to bloom during Spring". The two meanings are close enough in this case it really doesn't matter. > So how does the IRC interpretation deal with {ZAhO lo broda ku ... [cu] >> ZAhO brode}? >> > In what sense? What semantics does it assign it, or how does it achieve > the old semantics of that statement? (I assume you dropped a {nu}). > How about both, although I was asking about the former. > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > > > > >> >>> Here's a possible fix, though it's already quite different from the >>> original, plus I really don't like the -cfa-: >>> >>> lo nunvesycfa >>> cu jai co'a rulba'o >>> ja'e lo nunmle >>> >> >> I wouldn't call that a fix. If anything, it's worse than the original, >> IMO. >> >> >>> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@** >>> googlegroups.com . >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/lojban?hl=en . >>> >>> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d04462f0e685cfd04d2a37b7b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com= > wrote:
As far = as my haiku is concerned, the "old" interpretation and the "= IRC"=20 interpretation are near enough in meaning that I don't really feel it= =20 needs changing, however:
=A0
...They're n= ot at all close in meaning, in fact they're closer to being opposites t= han to being the same. The old {broda co'a lo nu brode} has broda happe= ning when brode begins; the new one has broda beginning when brode is happe= ning. A trivial example of the difference is if {lo nu brode} lasts forever= in a universe where "forever" extends infinitely in both directi= ons, then the new version is just {co'a broda} (every event is simultan= eous with an event that lasts forever), while the old version is nonsensica= l.

Yes, but we're not talking about= hypothetical examples, we're talking specifically about the haiku, as = shown by the statement "As far as my haiku is concerned....".

In this particular instance, it's "Flowers blo= om when Spring begins", versus "Flowers begin to bloom during Spr= ing". The two meanings are close enough in this case it really doesn&#= 39;t matter.
=A0
So how does the IRC interpretation deal with {ZAhO lo broda ku = ... [cu] ZAhO brode}?
In what sense? What semantics does it=20 assign it, or how does it achieve the old semantics of that statement?=20 (I assume you dropped a {nu}).

How abou= t both, although I was asking about the former.
=A0
mi'e la latro'a mu'o




=A0
Here's a possible fix, though it's already quite different from the= original, plus I really don't like the -cfa-:

lo nunvesycfa
cu jai co'a rulba'o
ja'e lo nunmle

I wouldn't call that = a fix. If anything, it's worse than the original, IMO.
=A0
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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--
mu'o mi'e .a= ionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pa= tfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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