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Subject: Re: [lojban] searching
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If you defined it the other way, you wouldn't get quite the same thing by
just attaching {poi}. Instead you could wind up looking for a definite
shirt, rather than just "some green shirt". {da} wouldn't fix this either,
because the quantifier would be in the wrong place. (That is, "I'm looking
for {da poi crino}" is "There exists a green thing that I'm looking for";
the existential is outside the looking. To move it inside you would need an
abstractor, which is exactly what gimste-sisku does.)

Ultimately I agree, {sisku} as currently defined is rather strange to
consider as the primitive. It feels excessively abstracted from everyday
life, even if it is occasionally rather compact/precise.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, I wasn't looking for a "we should change lojban suck that..." sort
> of thing.  I assumed there was some solution.
>
> Just kind of sucks that it's very easy for me to say "I am looking for a
> green thing in my dresser" (mi sisku lo (ka?) crino lo seldacru).  But for
> "I'm looking for my keys", I've either got to spend half the day spelling
> it all out, or I guess selkik's tanru works  tolerably well "mi troci co
> zvafa'i lo mi ckiku"
>
> I guess it just seems like an unfortunate definition for sisku given how
> easy it is to *add* an object-by-property aspect to the searching.  i.e.
>  "mi sisku lo creka poi crino" or even "mi sisku lo crino creka".
>
> meh, it is what it is.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Little correction:
>>
>> On 8 January 2013 12:08, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Using Lojban as it is without changing anything, there is a convoluted
>> > way to use sisku as-is, like this:
>> > .i mi sisku lo ka lo mi ckiku cu zvati ce'u kei ro zo'e ne lo zdani
>>
>> {ro zo'e ne lo mi zdani} distributes, which is bad, so we need to make
>> it into a mass/set:
>> {loi ro zo'e ne lo mi zdani} is better, but you could probably use {lo
>> zdani} outright as a sisku3, in which case you're considering the
>> house to be a mass/set of all the places within (because xorlo).
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
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If you defined it the other way, you wouldn&#39;t get quite the same thing =
by just attaching {poi}. Instead you could wind up looking for a definite s=
hirt, rather than just &quot;some green shirt&quot;. {da} wouldn&#39;t fix =
this either, because the quantifier would be in the wrong place. (That is, =
&quot;I&#39;m looking for {da poi crino}&quot; is &quot;There exists a gree=
n thing that I&#39;m looking for&quot;; the existential is outside the look=
ing. To move it inside you would need an abstractor, which is exactly what =
gimste-sisku does.)=A0<div>
<br></div><div>Ultimately I agree, {sisku} as currently defined is rather s=
trange to consider as the primitive. It feels excessively abstracted from e=
veryday life, even if it is occasionally rather compact/precise.<div><br>
</div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Luke Bergen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lukeabergen@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Yeah, I wasn&#39;t looking for a &quot;we sh=
ould change lojban suck that...&quot; sort of thing. =A0I assumed there was=
 some solution.<div>
<br></div><div>Just kind of sucks that it&#39;s very easy for me to say &qu=
ot;I am looking for a green thing in my dresser&quot; (mi sisku lo (ka?) cr=
ino lo seldacru). =A0But for &quot;I&#39;m looking for my keys&quot;, I&#39=
;ve either got to spend half the day spelling it all out, or I guess selkik=
&#39;s tanru works =A0tolerably=A0well &quot;mi troci co zvafa&#39;i lo mi =
ckiku&quot;</div>


<div><br></div><div>I guess it just seems like an unfortunate definition fo=
r sisku given how easy it is to <i>add</i>=A0an object-by-property aspect t=
o the searching. =A0i.e. =A0&quot;mi sisku lo creka poi crino&quot; or even=
 &quot;mi sisku lo crino creka&quot;.</div>


<div><br></div><div>meh, it is what it is.<div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Jacob Errington <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Little correction:<br>
<div><br>
On 8 January 2013 12:08, Jacob Errington &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Using Lojban as it is without changing anything, there is a convoluted=
<br>
&gt; way to use sisku as-is, like this:<br>
&gt; .i mi sisku lo ka lo mi ckiku cu zvati ce&#39;u kei ro zo&#39;e ne lo =
zdani<br>
<br>
</div>{ro zo&#39;e ne lo mi zdani} distributes, which is bad, so we need to=
 make<br>
it into a mass/set:<br>
{loi ro zo&#39;e ne lo mi zdani} is better, but you could probably use {lo<=
br>
zdani} outright as a sisku3, in which case you&#39;re considering the<br>
house to be a mass/set of all the places within (because xorlo).<br>
<div><br>
.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o<br>
<br>
</div><div><div>--<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb">=
<div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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