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Huh? If it's in the UD, it exists in the sense of the UD in the UD. That
is, a UD induces a zasti3 as "x exists iff x is in the UD". That's
definitions, not even logic. I think what you're saying is that under xorlo
introducing {lo pavyseljirna} into the UD doesn't imply that {da
pavyseljirna} in the sense of the UD. But {lo pavyseljirna} still exists in
the sense of the UD, whatever that means, and more likely than not {da
pavyseljrina} in the sense of the UD (if it doesn't, then you're being a
jerk, in that what you're saying is basically a bear goo example).

We really need to have a chat about how to better handle universes of
discourse, I think...

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la latro'a cu cusku di'e
>
>> His point involves a definition of {da broda} as "there exists x in the
>>
>> universe of discourse such that x broda". This does not require "There
>> exists x in the universe of discourse such that x broda gi'e zasti [fi
>> zu'i]", since we talk about things that don't exist all the time. Under
>> this definition, if you say {lo pavyseljirna}, there's a unicorn in the
>> universe of discourse, irrespective of whether it exists in reality.
>>
>
> "Reality" (which you described with zasti fi zu'i) doesn't matter, since
> we're talking in terms of UDs. lo pavyseljirna introduces unicorns into our
> UD, but it still doesn't claim that one *exists* in *this UD* (other UDs
> don't matter, nor does "reality"). This distinction seems important, and it
> matters a lot when we talk about xorlo too. So, I'm not sure this is
> exactly the point he makes. Some clarification would be useful.
>
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
> --
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Huh? If it&#39;s in the UD, it exists in the sense of the UD in the UD. Tha=
t is, a UD induces a zasti3 as &quot;x exists iff x is in the UD&quot;. Tha=
t&#39;s definitions, not even logic. I think what you&#39;re saying is that=
 under xorlo introducing {lo pavyseljirna} into the UD doesn&#39;t imply th=
at {da pavyseljirna} in the sense of the UD. But {lo pavyseljirna} still ex=
ists in the sense of the UD, whatever that means, and more likely than not =
{da pavyseljrina} in the sense of the UD (if it doesn&#39;t, then you&#39;r=
e being a jerk, in that what you&#39;re saying is basically a bear goo exam=
ple).=A0<div>
<br></div><div>We really need to have a chat about how to better handle uni=
verses of discourse, I think...<br><div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la lat=
ro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 8=
, 2013 at 7:17 PM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sela=
dwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">la latro&#39;a cu cusku di=
&#39;e<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
His point involves a definition of {da broda} as &quot;there exists x in th=
e<div class=3D"im"><br>
universe of discourse such that x broda&quot;. This does not require &quot;=
There<br>
exists x in the universe of discourse such that x broda gi&#39;e zasti [fi<=
br>
zu&#39;i]&quot;, since we talk about things that don&#39;t exist all the ti=
me. Under<br>
this definition, if you say {lo pavyseljirna}, there&#39;s a unicorn in the=
<br>
universe of discourse, irrespective of whether it exists in reality.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
&quot;Reality&quot; (which you described with zasti fi zu&#39;i) doesn&#39;=
t matter, since we&#39;re talking in terms of UDs. lo pavyseljirna introduc=
es unicorns into our UD, but it still doesn&#39;t claim that one *exists* i=
n *this UD* (other UDs don&#39;t matter, nor does &quot;reality&quot;). Thi=
s distinction seems important, and it matters a lot when we talk about xorl=
o too. So, I&#39;m not sure this is exactly the point he makes. Some clarif=
ication would be useful.<div class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i<br>
<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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