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Subject: Re: [lojban] searching
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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Also, note that the solution to some of the problems from the "any"
discussion, namely an outer quantifier of {pa}, doesn't work here. For
example, in {ko dunda pa lo plise mi}, the command is satisfied no matter
which apple among {lo plise} the listener gives, so it is a satisfactory
translation of "Give me any one of the apples". This works in the {ko} case
because the {ko} creates a scope that the {pa} quantifier is under, which
is the origin of the awkward "make it true that" translations of Lojban
imperatives to English. (This is not a bad thing, and is arguably a good
thing.) Without a {ko} this requires some kind of abstraction or similar.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:

> Look at the "any" discussion, as it's the same idea. {lo crino} can very
> well have only one referent, even if there are many green things in the UD.
> It *shouldn't *have only one referent, if the distinction matters to you
> as the speaker; that's (part of?) what {le} is for. But it can anyway. This
> means you can't say "I'm looking for a green thing" and be absolutely
> certain that your listener knows you don't care which one (without a
> separate bridi).
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:44 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 02:10:28AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:
>> > Because {lo crino} can very well mean "that blade of grass over there".
>>
>> What's the problem here? If you're just looking for something green
>> and your universe of discourse includes blades of grass, then this is
>> perfectly valid.
>>
>> > It's not specific either way, and unlike with definiteness there isn't a
>> > way to add quantifiers or anything to make it so.
>>
>> I don't get the rest.. If you are looking for a green shirt
>> and your UD includes more things than shirts, you can always say
>> {mi sisku lo crino creka}
>>
>>
>> v4hn
>>
>
>

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Also, note that the solution to some of the problems from the &quot;any&quo=
t; discussion, namely an outer quantifier of {pa}, doesn&#39;t work here. F=
or example, in {ko dunda pa lo plise mi}, the command is satisfied no matte=
r which apple among {lo plise} the listener gives, so it is a satisfactory =
translation of &quot;Give me any one of the apples&quot;. This works in the=
 {ko} case because the {ko} creates a scope that the {pa} quantifier is und=
er, which is the origin of the awkward &quot;make it true that&quot; transl=
ations of Lojban imperatives to English. (This is not a bad thing, and is a=
rguably a good thing.) Without a {ko} this requires some kind of abstractio=
n or similar.=A0<div>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o</div><div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbra=
vado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Look at the &quot;any&quot; discussion, as i=
t&#39;s the same idea. {lo crino} can very well have only one referent, eve=
n if there are many green things in the UD. It <i>shouldn&#39;t </i>have on=
ly one referent, if the distinction matters to you as the speaker; that&#39=
;s (part of?) what {le} is for.=A0But it can anyway. This means you can&#39=
;t say &quot;I&#39;m looking for a green thing&quot; and be absolutely cert=
ain that your listener knows you don&#39;t care which one (without a separa=
te bridi).<div>


<br></div><div><div class=3D"im">mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br></=
div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 a=
t 7:44 AM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:me@v4hn.de" target=
=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div>On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 02:10:28AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:<br>
&gt; Because {lo crino} can very well mean &quot;that blade of grass over t=
here&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>What&#39;s the problem here? If you&#39;re just looking for something=
 green<br>
and your universe of discourse includes blades of grass, then this is<br>
perfectly valid.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; It&#39;s not specific either way, and unlike with definiteness there i=
sn&#39;t a<br>
&gt; way to add quantifiers or anything to make it so.<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t get the rest.. If you are looking for a green shirt<br>
and your UD includes more things than shirts, you can always say<br>
{mi sisku lo crino creka}<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
v4hn<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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