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Subject: Re: [lojban] searching
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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As I said in response to the remark you quoted, indefiniteness doesn't fix
searching, because you need a scope around the quantifier that you don't
have without an abstractor. {mi sisku da poi crino} is "There exists a
green thing for which I am searching", which means that "within the
searching" if you will there is a definite green thing.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:08 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Well, for indefiniteness you can (and should) use variable rather than
> {lo, le} both of which involve saliency (external and internal), which is
> precisely something definite, relatively speaking.
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:09 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] searching
>
> Look at the "any" discussion, as it's the same idea. {lo crino} can very
> well have only one referent, even if there are many green things in the UD.
> It *shouldn't *have only one referent, if the distinction matters to you
> as the speaker; that's (part of?) what {le} is for. But it can anyway. This
> means you can't say "I'm looking for a green thing" and be absolutely
> certain that your listener knows you don't care which one (without a
> separate bridi).
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:44 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 02:10:28AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:
> > Because {lo crino} can very well mean "that blade of grass over there".
>
> What's the problem here? If you're just looking for something green
> and your universe of discourse includes blades of grass, then this is
> perfectly valid.
>
> > It's not specific either way, and unlike with definiteness there isn't a
> > way to add quantifiers or anything to make it so.
>
> I don't get the rest.. If you are looking for a green shirt
> and your UD includes more things than shirts, you can always say
> {mi sisku lo crino creka}
>
>
> v4hn
>
>
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As I said in response to the remark you quoted, indefiniteness doesn&#39;t =
fix searching, because you need a scope around the quantifier that you don&=
#39;t have without an abstractor. {mi sisku da poi crino} is &quot;There ex=
ists a green thing for which I am searching&quot;, which means that &quot;w=
ithin the searching&quot; if you will there is a definite green thing.<div>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:08 PM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@ya=
hoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif">Well, for indefiniteness you can (a=
nd should) use variable rather than {lo, le} both of which involve saliency=
 (external and internal), which is precisely something definite, relatively=
 speaking.<br>
<div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:time=
s new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-family=
:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <f=
ont face=3D"Arial"><div class=3D"im">
 <hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Ian =
Johnson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bli=
ndbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</sp=
an></b> <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban=
@googlegroups.com</a> <br>
 </div><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, Janua=
ry 10, 2013 9:09 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span>=
</b> Re: [lojban] searching<br> </font>
 </div> <br>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">Look at the &quot;any&quot; discussion, as it&#=
39;s the same idea. {lo crino} can very well have only one referent, even i=
f there are many green things in the UD. It <i>shouldn&#39;t </i>have only =
one referent, if the distinction matters to you as the speaker; that&#39;s =
(part of?) what {le} is for.=A0But it can anyway. This means you can&#39;t =
say &quot;I&#39;m looking for a green thing&quot; and be absolutely certain=
 that your listener knows you don&#39;t care which one (without a separate =
bridi).<div>


<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div>On Wed, Jan 9, =
2013 at 7:44 AM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mai=
lto:me@v4hn.de" target=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">


<div>On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 02:10:28AM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote:<br>
&gt; Because {lo crino} can very well mean &quot;that blade of grass over t=
here&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>What&#39;s the problem here? If you&#39;re just looking for something=
 green<br>
and your universe of discourse includes blades of grass, then this is<br>
perfectly valid.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; It&#39;s not specific either way, and unlike with definiteness there i=
sn&#39;t a<br>
&gt; way to add quantifiers or anything to make it so.<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t get the rest.. If you are looking for a green shirt<br>
and your UD includes more things than shirts, you can always say<br>
{mi sisku lo crino creka}<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
v4hn<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"im">



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</div></div><br><br> </div> </div>  </div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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