Received: from mail-da0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]:46956) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ttu0G-0004gn-V2; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:51:41 -0800 Received: by mail-da0-f56.google.com with SMTP id g9sf1232770dad.11 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:51:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lsvNaD31blciN6XLxxOZfyyO8Vf7ijyeocpFqj4vsu4=; b=Y4Gexx3ii8H47y9Rgsh0g7Jn/AhKeQ2Nmik86mwf8NVGNKA0cVtW9HTqVjHKTFnVj0 J0RgNHRKsBRl520sIkvuxloyhzf8r+9z5b7ULibkv/m0rmlp41acB1bzmNBKDS1guZhS KqYoNbBaD3dgp43t507jti82aYo+dxhigccLbQSOfa+xBpIH0YA45AWtQWiaYc8Hw/WI Mo9fG0R6mJzAedk4rRtVMM0VAW839BGYdec6apEciIIMFYjqEEJs85XlGC+pySb6Qkpr uPLLaYv/efvjmr7Z74VZO5mYPk6w+suWyDCbf04+dvp8EjDialJdKMuEOhVC3YQCIQMF 2rfA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lsvNaD31blciN6XLxxOZfyyO8Vf7ijyeocpFqj4vsu4=; b=FBApapcqa9X4blD2VpiBE6yBsB8VY4+p66IVu3cX3nzOf0HqnIFohZ580HEwNFWyER pLbiSob6Vn+9NNSSex8GzkImi3Uk+sR1MKFUPBrG6NLay+rQJxudQvLjYVoOMpgtR/d+ B5HO/1DRntKNr5wosUnH6XvPHP9V9s/r9ve02jFIr1U7/1eiRG0jw11hTiYIJMXrNLoJ 2V3BkWPYHPYlBI9fLli/plWX2mH9JMRQ9bp0t/Z1Z/8QAXubefHXZWODyOfvkNsnklSl QWZS5C6637R39T6PTWDtFjbn29WcHAnX686lE2HLvcRiCaxL11PK5It9G1K28Qs2+WSb Vm1Q== X-Received: by 10.49.58.167 with SMTP id s7mr14425408qeq.5.1357969890306; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:51:30 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.0.102 with SMTP id 6ls2693830qed.24.gmail; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:51:28 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.116.135 with SMTP id jw7mr14573348qeb.10.1357969888904; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:51:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:51:27 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <47ec1eda-3442-4b12-8b48-c9e1b40d72d0@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <58935d67-62c7-4949-b2ac-5c20da578d4e@googlegroups.com> References: <58935d67-62c7-4949-b2ac-5c20da578d4e@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Suggestion for a new animacy marker in Lojban. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1072_1801129.1357969887920" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1072_1801129.1357969887920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:35:59 AM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: > > *Suggestion for a new animacy marker in Lojban.* > > Many if not most languages divide all predicates into levels of animacy. > English, for instance, has at least two levels. These are the pronouns for > them > 1. Animate. He/she > 2. Inanimate. It > > This allows quickly determine agents of most actions. > Example: > The woman was looking at the mirror. It was ugly. > Let's try it in Lojban. > {lo ninmu pu ca'o catlu lo minra .i ta pu tolmelbi} > No, too ambiguous. And I opine that counting two sumti back in order to > use {ra} is much trickier for human brain than just understanding semantic > roles of sumti. > Therefore, I suggest introducing a new marker reflecting animacy of any > object. I'll use {xoi} which currently bears no official meaning. > > xoi - marks preceding construct as animate > xoinai - marks preceding construct as inanimate > > {lo ninmu pu ca'o catlu lo minra. i ta xoinai pu tolmelbi} > > However, some languages have more levels of animacy. > The father was looking at his son. He was beautiful. > {lo patfu pu catlu lo bersa .i ta xoixime'i pu melbi} > The author of this sentence probably thinks that children are less animate > than grown-ups. > So we can build a scale ranging from most animate objects to inanimate. > It's only the speaker who decides what level of animacy this or that > object has. > > *Gender-specific pronouns.* > You might argue why not add more specific markers reflecting for instance > the gender of the object described. > Let's repeat once again. > > English has at least two levels. These are the pronouns for them > 1. Animate. He/she > 2. Inanimate. It > > In other words, English has two pronouns expressing sex but only one > pronoun expressing inanimate objects. > There might be languages that split inanimate levels into other specific > classes (furniture, houses, weapons). > Therefore, it would be stupid to try to import all those quirks of > natlangs. {ta poi nakni} is fine. > > *Unsettled issues.* > Some languages have "abstractions" in their lowest level of animacy > hierarchy. > Lojban is pretty strict when dealing with objects and abstractions. The > issue with the scale "su'unai - su'u" that one might imagine remains > unsettled. > I started this thread because in the list of semantics primitives reacted by A.Wierzbicka "who" and "what" are separate concepts. However, the list is far from perfection if you read her books really thoroughly. {ma poi prenu} {ma poi dacti} (even when objects are persons) might be enough. Anyway it's a highly speculative topic. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/ovklsVo33jAJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_1072_1801129.1357969887920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:35:59 AM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:
Suggestion for a new animac= y marker in Lojban.

Many if not most languages= divide all predicates into levels of animacy.
English, for insta= nce, has at least two levels. These are the pronouns for them
1. = Animate. He/she
2. Inanimate. It

This al= lows quickly determine agents of most actions.
Example:
The woman was looking at the mirror. It was ugly.
Let's try it i= n Lojban.
{lo ninmu pu ca'o catlu lo minra .i ta pu tolmelbi}
No, too ambiguous. And I opine that counting two sumti back in order= to use {ra} is much trickier for human brain than just understanding seman= tic roles of sumti.
Therefore, I suggest introducing a new marker= reflecting animacy of any object. I'll use {xoi} which currently bears no = official meaning.

xoi - marks preceding construct = as animate
xoinai - marks preceding construct as inanimate
<= div>
{lo ninmu pu ca'o catlu lo minra. i ta xoinai pu tolmelb= i}

However, some languages have more levels of ani= macy.
The father was looking at his son. He was beautiful.
<= div>{lo patfu pu catlu lo bersa .i ta xoixime'i pu melbi}
The aut= hor of this sentence probably thinks that children are less animate than gr= own-ups. 
So we can build a scale ranging from most animate = objects to inanimate.
It's only the speaker who decides what leve= l of animacy this or that object has.

Gender-sp= ecific pronouns.
You might argue why not add more specific ma= rkers reflecting for instance the gender of the object described.
Let's repeat once again.

English has at least two= levels. These are the pronouns for them
1. Animate. He/she
=
2. Inanimate. It

In other words, English has = two pronouns expressing sex but only one pronoun expressing inanimate objec= ts.
There might be languages that split inanimate levels into oth= er specific classes (furniture, houses, weapons).
Therefore, it w= ould be stupid to try to import all those quirks of natlangs. {ta poi nakni= } is fine.

Unsettled issues.
Some= languages have "abstractions" in their lowest level of animacy hierarchy.<= /div>
Lojban is pretty strict when dealing with objects and abstraction= s. The issue with the scale "su'unai - su'u" that one might imagine remains= unsettled.

I started this thread bec= ause in the list of semantics primitives reacted by A.Wierzbicka "who" and = "what" are separate concepts.
However, the list is far from perfe= ction if you read her books really thoroughly. {ma poi prenu} {ma poi dacti= } (even when objects are persons) might be enough. Anyway it's a highly spe= culative topic.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/ov= klsVo33jAJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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