Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 04:55:12 -0800 (PST)
From: jongausib <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] criteria for the dictionary
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 Content preview:  If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban
    dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste should
    contain and in which form. Right now the dictionary is rather finite, but
    with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent. I think it's
    a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute with a lot of
    valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot of my work, because
    they don't fit into some future official template or list of criteria. [...]
    
 
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If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban dictionary, I 
think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste should contain 
and in which form.

Right now the dictionary is rather finite, but with more contributors it 
could expand to an extreme extent.
I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute 
with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot of 
my work, because they don't fit into some future official template or list 
of criteria.

*Vocabulary*
1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of each gismu as distinct 
valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc?

2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction this set 
could be extremely large)

For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene 
that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most 
common names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name 
of the street where you are living and shit like that.

3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?

With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets, we 
are going to have a very huge dictionary.
I've been trying to translate some names of species into lujvo (the 
solution I prefer), but the latin names are often not very descriptive 
and/or logical, so I think one of the better solution (at least for names 
of species etc, you use relative often) is to just lojbanize the latin 
names into fu'ivla.

You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice to have 
some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe lojban 
standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific 
disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little as 
Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), but 
still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the 
official language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't 
want to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible 
future.

4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?

I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. The 
prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what this 
foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between for 
example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvanila} "vanilla 
seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin.

The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural specific, 
not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fit into some 
cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: "[stage-4] are 
used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must be 
made as short as possible."

But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the cause of 
making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this species 
before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to the 
language, even if this at the same time means that we're going to learn a 
lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'ivlas 
could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}.

*Form*
I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before publishing a 
printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to read through all 
jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before printing. But if 
we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add valsi in the 
same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the future.

1. Form of definition
Which format do you think should be standard?

{nerkla}:
a. n1=k1 enters n2=k2 from origin k3 via route k4 using means/vehicle k5

b.x1=n1=k1 enters x2=n2=k2 from origin x3=k3 via route x4=k4 using 
means/vehicle x5=k5

c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5

2. Etymology
I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the notes, but use the "add 
etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you can 
discuss which language to borrow from.
This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition to be 
as cultural neutral as possible.
So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of 
species, the language most related to the specific cultural 
phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultures share the 
same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto).

3. How much info in the notes?

And also a final question: Is it possible for a user to edit another user's 
notes in jbovlaste, to add info?

4. Experimental gismu/cmavo
I think that's BPFK job to consider if these words ever are going to be 
official. How does the procedure looks like for this?

mu'omi'e jongausib


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban=20
dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste=20
should contain and in which form.<br><br>Right now the dictionary is rather=
 finite, but with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent.<b=
r>I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute=
 with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot o=
f my work, because they don't fit into some future official template or lis=
t of criteria.<br><br><b>Vocabulary</b><br>1. Should we try to add lujvo fo=
r all places of each gismu as distinct valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {ter=
ni'i} etc?<br><br>2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no re=
striction this set could be extremely large)<br><br>For example, we could a=
dd recommendation that you only should add cmene that could be regarded as =
having a lexicographical value, like the most common names of persons, comp=
anies, geographical entities etc. Not the name of the street where you are =
living and shit like that.<br><br>3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?<=
br><br>With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large se=
ts, we are going to have a very huge dictionary.<br>I've been trying to tra=
nslate some names of species into lujvo (the solution I prefer), but the la=
tin names are often not very descriptive and/or logical, so I think one of =
the better solution (at least for names of species etc, you use relative of=
ten) is to just lojbanize the latin names into fu'ivla.<br><br>You'll proba=
bly already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice to have some guideli=
nes documented somewhere about standards. I believe lojban standards about =
biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific disciplines, doesn't =
belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little as Oxford style manual =
is normative for ALL kind of English language), but still it would be nice =
to have such guidelines (on a level below the official language). Especiall=
y jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't want to have an inconsistent d=
ictionary with a dukse of words in a possible future.<br><br>4. When is it =
ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?<br><br>I know some lojbanist=
 don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. The prefix in the stage-3 f=
u'ivla help you understand a little what this foreign word is about. And yo=
u could make distinctions easily between for example {spatrvanila}, {grutrv=
anila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvanila} "vanilla seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanill=
in.<br><br>The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural=
 specific, not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fi=
t into some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: "[s=
tage-4] are used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that =
it must be made as short as possible."<br><br>But as long as you don't add =
stage-4 without cause (what's the cause of making {konjaku} a stage-4 for e=
xample? I've never heard of this species before), I think those fu'ivlas co=
uld really give a good flavor to the language, even if this at the same tim=
e means that we're going to learn a lot of inconsistent words just like lea=
rning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'ivlas could be really cool, my favourites ar=
e {iklki} and {fi'ikca}.<br><br><b>Form</b><br>I think jbovlaste should hav=
e a consistent format before publishing a printed version. Some poor fellow=
 would therefore have to read through all jbovlaste and edit it into a cons=
istent format just before printing. But if we would have guidelines from no=
w on already, and we all add valsi in the same way, there are going to be l=
ess work for someone in the future.<br><br>1. Form of definition<br>Which f=
ormat do you think should be standard?<br><br>{nerkla}:<br>a. n<sub>1</sub>=
=3Dk<sub>1</sub> enters n<sub>2</sub>=3Dk<sub>2</sub> from origin k<sub>3</=
sub> via route k<sub>4</sub> using means/vehicle k<sub>5</sub><br><br>b.x1=
=3Dn<sub>1</sub>=3Dk<sub>1</sub> enters x2=3Dn<sub>2</sub>=3Dk<sub>2</sub> =
from origin x3=3Dk<sub>3</sub> via route x4=3Dk<sub>4</sub> using means/veh=
icle x5=3Dk<sub>5</sub><br><br>c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 =
using means/vehicle x5<br><br>2. Etymology<br>I suggest that we don't add e=
tymology info in the notes, but use the "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste.<=
br><br>I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you=
 can discuss which language to borrow from.<br>This is a paranthetical but =
important question if lojban has ambition to be as cultural neutral as poss=
ible.<br>So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names=
 of species, the language most related to the specific cultural phenomena/o=
bject (or a derivate of languages if many cultures share the same phenomena=
/object, or in that case maybe esperanto).<br><br>3. How much info in the n=
otes?<br><br>And also a final question: Is it possible for a user to edit a=
nother user's notes in jbovlaste, to add info?<br><br>4. Experimental gismu=
/cmavo<br>I think that's BPFK job to consider if these words ever are going=
 to be official. How does the procedure looks like for this?<br><br>mu'omi'=
e jongausib<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<p></p>

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />


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