Received: from mail-ee0-f63.google.com ([74.125.83.63]:43949) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tujz3-0007CF-BM; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:22:05 -0800 Received: by mail-ee0-f63.google.com with SMTP id c1sf1641831eek.18 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=wcZnnQBzrd5ch5V1WS+EGHGXOXz8YM6ooJhhJobnxUQ=; b=GsZKaxS31ZvMKYh56eoFknggM10pMgxB1Ag3Y5RFCB5FMVKmubsZrxqwgM+7ijl8GO p5wVMfxl8D69FAlrpYbmijpMKNx5Z+rht3Lu3DeCj0W0FvuVFVk+yrCtUH5IoiotPNVd pr/4ghEAEZIEK99VmbVzK76cQOUErnuCVD3KuX0GrFqDv2YbEy6ATZRVLIHiDkOFWstj ywcdg7WqF+CIAAkuhEKCMTFbnrC6STlY5XqnuUtEXCC6BxM1KSh/qvnjXkhwd/GI8po7 Pm16rZRv9jiN/0GgwspaBPE+wwuajwBPI7SZnE+pLj9utc8znBwlDRtaKI1RpekD9EQj aTTg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=wcZnnQBzrd5ch5V1WS+EGHGXOXz8YM6ooJhhJobnxUQ=; b=sxChd1YSZf3QPg1+llmn4/eK/a06ErwSNK2Mr0ESIovXaMM4N/VQVPDprxyEllBiAy zLFTr+O2imM+tcgfHEuy3ytexOtGSRfpGYWwQFIdR+89423z1NETo6Ub/qulGV37k4Ji 0h9knCZYMRf2MrBTZE2tlgwt60QYgKz2mFbB8gs+nxkpB0T6Tu+W5Y8uY5dKaIlND7H8 JelqOYhz1o6ISnpYtwgLiHfJi2eXLHcieOAhDbkwYh2JsULLir0VAssIg2ZIw5sEmUfO 2QrLtM9MIvDBJiaPHBaXUsAAdv2cM4sRyaXxbD05kBwwkt7F88Fn9ZK46vH4X53URKkW aVHQ== X-Received: by 10.180.106.230 with SMTP id gx6mr1364829wib.16.1358169701660; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.98.131 with SMTP id ei3ls1404623wib.11.canary; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.0.196 with SMTP id 44mr106712184eeb.6.1358169700306; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.0.196 with SMTP id 44mr106712183eeb.6.1358169700285; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com (mail-ee0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g9si4973247eeo.1.2013.01.14.05.21.40 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.52; Received: by mail-ee0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b15so1556655eek.39 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.223.200 with SMTP id v48mr231479855eep.24.1358169700152; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.45.67 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <88bd2464-6efd-4252-9ff6-7c4f68f79e89@googlegroups.com> References: <88bd2464-6efd-4252-9ff6-7c4f68f79e89@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:21:40 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] criteria for the dictionary From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Fr=F6jd?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b62282085b61604d33f8681 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b62282085b61604d33f8681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Here's a link to my project of translating latin names of plants into lojban. Please contribute! Sorry for a lot of swedish comments in the document. It was meant only as private notes from the beginning, but I now think it's better to publish it on internet like gleki did with his projects. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_nLFjv5QIE9YTZ5MU9pM2lpUkU/edit mu'omi'e jongausib 2013/1/14 jongausib > If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban dictionary, > I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste should contain > and in which form. > > Right now the dictionary is rather finite, but with more contributors it > could expand to an extreme extent. > I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute > with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot of > my work, because they don't fit into some future official template or list > of criteria. > > *Vocabulary* > 1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of each gismu as distinct > valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc? > > 2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction this > set could be extremely large) > > For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene > that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most > common names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name > of the street where you are living and shit like that. > > 3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added? > > With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets, we > are going to have a very huge dictionary. > I've been trying to translate some names of species into lujvo (the > solution I prefer), but the latin names are often not very descriptive > and/or logical, so I think one of the better solution (at least for names > of species etc, you use relative often) is to just lojbanize the latin > names into fu'ivla. > > You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice to have > some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe lojban > standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific > disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little as > Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), but > still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the > official language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't > want to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible > future. > > 4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary? > > I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. The > prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what this > foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between for > example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvanila} "vanilla > seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin. > > The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural specific, > not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fit into some > cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: "[stage-4] are > used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must be > made as short as possible." > > But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the cause of > making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this species > before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to the > language, even if this at the same time means that we're going to learn a > lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'ivlas > could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}. > > *Form* > I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before publishing a > printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to read through all > jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before printing. But if > we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add valsi in the > same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the future. > > 1. Form of definition > Which format do you think should be standard? > > {nerkla}: > a. n1=k1 enters n2=k2 from origin k3 via route k4 using means/vehicle k5 > > b.x1=n1=k1 enters x2=n2=k2 from origin x3=k3 via route x4=k4 using > means/vehicle x5=k5 > > c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5 > > 2. Etymology > I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the notes, but use the "add > etymology"-link in jbovlaste. > > I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you can > discuss which language to borrow from. > This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition to > be as cultural neutral as possible. > So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of > species, the language most related to the specific cultural > phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultures share the > same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto). > > 3. How much info in the notes? > > And also a final question: Is it possible for a user to edit another > user's notes in jbovlaste, to add info? > > 4. Experimental gismu/cmavo > I think that's BPFK job to consider if these words ever are going to be > official. How does the procedure looks like for this? > > mu'omi'e jongausib > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/5yhXyYpO5eYJ. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --047d7b62282085b61604d33f8681 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's a link to my project of translating latin names of plants into l= ojban. Please contribute!
Sorry for a lot of swedish comments in the doc= ument. It was meant only as private notes from the beginning, but I now thi= nk it's better to publish it on internet like gleki did with his projec= ts.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_nLFjv5QIE9YTZ5MU9pM2lpUkU/edit<= br>
mu'omi'e jongausib

2013/1/= 14 jongausib <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>
If there's someday is going to be a comp= lete, official lojban=20 dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste= =20 should contain and in which form.

Right now the dictionary is rather= finite, but with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent.I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't co= ntribute with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete= a lot of my work, because they don't fit into some future official tem= plate or list of criteria.

Vocabulary
1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of ea= ch gismu as distinct valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc?
=
2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction this= set could be extremely large)

For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene= that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most co= mmon names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name o= f the street where you are living and shit like that.

3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?

With ALL names of s= pecies and chemical substances and other large sets, we are going to have a= very huge dictionary.
I've been trying to translate some names of s= pecies into lujvo (the solution I prefer), but the latin names are often no= t very descriptive and/or logical, so I think one of the better solution (a= t least for names of species etc, you use relative often) is to just lojban= ize the latin names into fu'ivla.

You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice = to have some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe loj= ban standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific d= isciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little= as Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), but= still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the offic= ial language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't wa= nt to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible f= uture.

4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?
I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-= 3. The prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what = this foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between = for example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvan= ila} "vanilla seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin.

The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural sp= ecific, not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily f= it into some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says= : "[stage-4] are used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so i= mportant that it must be made as short as possible."

But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the = cause of making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of th= is species before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good fla= vor to the language, even if this at the same time means that we're goi= ng to learn a lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But st= age-4 fu'ivlas could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi&= #39;ikca}.

Form
I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before= publishing a printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to rea= d through all jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before pr= inting. But if we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add= valsi in the same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the = future.

1. Form of definition
Which format do you think should be standard?<= br>
{nerkla}:
a. n1=3Dk1 enters n2= =3Dk2 from origin k3 via route k4 using me= ans/vehicle k5

b.x1=3Dn1=3Dk1 enters x2=3Dn2=3Dk= 2 from origin x3=3Dk3 via route x4=3Dk4 using m= eans/vehicle x5=3Dk5

c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via r= oute x4 using means/vehicle x5

2. Etymology
I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the n= otes, but use the "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I thi= nk etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you can dis= cuss which language to borrow from.
This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition to be= as cultural neutral as possible.
So one recommendation could be that yo= u always use latin for names of species, the language most related to the s= pecific cultural phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultu= res share the same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto).

3. How much info in the notes?

And also a final question: Is it = possible for a user to edit another user's notes in jbovlaste, to add i= nfo?

4. Experimental gismu/cmavo
I think that's BPFK job to c= onsider if these words ever are going to be official. How does the procedur= e looks like for this?

mu'omi'e jongausib







--
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/5yhXyYpO5eYJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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