Received: from mail-gg0-f184.google.com ([209.85.161.184]:40423) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TulKE-0000B5-O4; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:48:02 -0800 Received: by mail-gg0-f184.google.com with SMTP id q3sf2556529gge.1 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XwztZs08XM3Zu1Wckm9vrSrVnOl4uqEM6K0GrqJjqr8=; b=aFfg1E8ZyE14ymAmhssT4piIy+kVzh2HcASwEZJWlMHErMdCy6CT/Q0KPRRttM5ALr p9wu9qjCmdM5hMRQNztWOC0uCKCdOnHsGapkMAJjmr1l3E0ItRF59+wkLOMOgVxVs72k zE2XT3tAA+8HFVegiVuoxnlia470ulv+X4+hdeiGn6DFtCh/OdOxTqOh1pYYTY2pqBvg KHTOgoPFtTH/Q4pyDi45a2R/reWlwfItYcNwqrgyVPiUYFEJFIyUe0iRiGUBiouq2tHF AzftzgFaAWomaXuazhNybwYkmPvitvjcjSx5bNZUUwK0WuaH4KXMzlAnTkZrxgnUOVi7 XRqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XwztZs08XM3Zu1Wckm9vrSrVnOl4uqEM6K0GrqJjqr8=; b=o6lmUPhRyLkvxwjDOjSTmminMvXfXMR9C/IB1FblH7fv/BUGuZSfppot8RMLnNjX74 B04hPIsJbceX5EiIUYFz+Y1oL5mwlfuMH8ckt6FOEQO4aSzZl3q1F82P/JiumByIMRDX BVACvyZQC9chYXlZgZxuhQTI/C5AnNA7MEYnzD5i4oTxVFBqYC7lPWhmLFph+/YXoJsP YyzlOvIyHr64SuJVyHKP3EOVUmDs/1aTIVJkRApMCCsWnl7CBXhBvYp2C+mava1ezixt AZpcwcvLiQiVxSazvFj/QRujbP7IVu7HMgggL+vctIns39JUt5irGu9PcQl4a3ZdMBy6 cN0w== X-Received: by 10.49.58.167 with SMTP id s7mr15345785qeq.5.1358174859674; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.127.174 with SMTP id nh14ls3446194qeb.28.gmail; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.58.167 with SMTP id s7mr15345783qeq.5.1358174859037; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:47:38 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <88bd2464-6efd-4252-9ff6-7c4f68f79e89@googlegroups.com> References: <88bd2464-6efd-4252-9ff6-7c4f68f79e89@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: criteria for the dictionary MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_234_28122928.1358174858576" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_234_28122928.1358174858576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, January 14, 2013 4:55:12 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote: > > If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban dictionary, > I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste should contain > and in which form. > > Right now the dictionary is rather finite, but with more contributors it > could expand to an extreme extent. > I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute > with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot of > my work, because they don't fit into some future official template or list > of criteria. > > *Vocabulary* > 1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of each gismu as distinct > valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc? > > 2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction this > set could be extremely large) > > For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene > that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most > common names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name > of the street where you are living and shit like that. > > 3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added? > > With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets, we > are going to have a very huge dictionary. > I've been trying to translate some names of species into lujvo (the > solution I prefer) I know two guys who are against anything that is non-jvajvo. > , but the latin names are often not very descriptive and/or logical, so I > think one of the better solution (at least for names of species etc, you > use relative often) is to just lojbanize the latin names into fu'ivla. > > You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice to have > some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe lojban > standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific > disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little as > Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), but > still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the > official language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't > want to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible > future. > .ie CLL 2.0 must have guidelines of lojbanising Latin names. An algorithm (like the one we have for gismu) would be an ideal solution. > 4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary? > > I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. The > prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what this > foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between for > example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvanila} "vanilla > seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin. > The best stage3 fu'ivla are fu'ivla that allow dropping their prefix with the resulting word still being grammatical. > The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural specific, > not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fit into some > cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: "[stage-4] are > used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must be > made as short as possible." > > But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the cause of > making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this species > before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to the > language, even if this at the same time means that we're going to learn a > lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'ivlas > could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}. > > *Form* > I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before publishing a > printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to read through all > jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before printing. But if > we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add valsi in the > same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the future. > > 1. Form of definition > Which format do you think should be standard? > > {nerkla}: > a. n1=k1 enters n2=k2 from origin k3 via route k4 using means/vehicle k5 > > b.x1=n1=k1 enters x2=n2=k2 from origin x3=k3 via route x4=k4 using > means/vehicle x5=k5 > > c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5 > > 2. Etymology > I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the notes, but use the "add > etymology"-link in jbovlaste. > > I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you can > discuss which language to borrow from. > This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition to > be as cultural neutral as possible. > So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of > species, the language most related to the specific cultural > phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultures share the > same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto). > > 3. How much info in the notes? > > And also a final question: Is it possible for a user to edit another > user's notes in jbovlaste, to add info? > > 4. Experimental gismu/cmavo > I think that's BPFK job to consider if these words ever are going to be > official. How does the procedure looks like for this? > > mu'omi'e jongausib > > > > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/q1A1agoy5koJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_234_28122928.1358174858576 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, January 14, 2013 4:55:12 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote:If there's someday is going to be a= complete, official lojban=20 dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste=20 should contain and in which form.

Right now the dictionary is rather= finite, but with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent.I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute= with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot o= f my work, because they don't fit into some future official template or lis= t of criteria.

Vocabulary
1. Should we try to add lujvo fo= r all places of each gismu as distinct valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {ter= ni'i} etc?

2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no re= striction this set could be extremely large)

For example, we could a= dd recommendation that you only should add cmene that could be regarded as = having a lexicographical value, like the most common names of persons, comp= anies, geographical entities etc. Not the name of the street where you are = living and shit like that.

3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?<= br>
With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large se= ts, we are going to have a very huge dictionary.
I've been trying to tra= nslate some names of species into lujvo (the solution I prefer)

I know two guys who are against anything that is non-j= vajvo.

 
, but the latin names are often not very descriptive and/or l= ogical, so I think one of the better solution (at least for names of specie= s etc, you use relative often) is to just lojbanize the latin names into fu= 'ivla.

You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be= nice to have some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I belie= ve lojban standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scient= ific disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as litt= le as Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), b= ut still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the off= icial language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't want= to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible fut= ure.

.ie CLL 2.0 must have guidelines o= f lojbanising Latin names. An algorithm (like the one we have for gismu) wo= uld be an ideal solution.



4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vl= a in the dictionary?

I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivl= a. I do like stage-3. The prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand= a little what this foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions = easily between for example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsi= jrvanila} "vanilla seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin.
<= br>
The best stage3 fu'ivla are fu'ivla that allow dropping their= prefix with the resulting word still being grammatical.


The only stage-4 fu'ivla= I add are those which are very cultural specific, not easily constructed a= s a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fit into some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'i= vla should also be useful. CLL says: "[stage-4] are used where a fu'ivla ha= s become so common or so important that it must be made as short as possibl= e."

But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the c= ause of making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this sp= ecies before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to th= e language, even if this at the same time means that we're going to learn a= lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'ivla= s could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}.

= Form
I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before publis= hing a printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to read throu= gh all jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before printing.= But if we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add valsi = in the same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the future.=

1. Form of definition
Which format do you think should be standa= rd?

{nerkla}:
a. n1=3Dk1 enters n2=3Dk2 from origin k3 via route k4 using = means/vehicle k5

b.x1=3Dn1=3Dk1 ent= ers x2=3Dn2=3Dk2 from origin x3=3Dk3 via r= oute x4=3Dk4 using means/vehicle x5=3Dk5

c. x1= enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5

2. Ety= mology
I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the notes, but use = the "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I think etymology should be m= andatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you can discuss which language to borro= w from.
This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has amb= ition to be as cultural neutral as possible.
So one recommendation could= be that you always use latin for names of species, the language most relat= ed to the specific cultural phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if= many cultures share the same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esper= anto).

3. How much info in the notes?

And also a final questi= on: Is it possible for a user to edit another user's notes in jbovlaste, to= add info?

4. Experimental gismu/cmavo
I think that's BPFK job to= consider if these words ever are going to be official. How does the proced= ure looks like for this?

mu'omi'e jongausib





<= br>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/q1= A1agoy5koJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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