On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:55 AM, jongausib <so.cool.ogi@gmail.= com> wrote:

If there's someday is going to be a comp= lete, official lojban=20 dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste= =20 should contain and in which form.

Right now the dictionary is rather= finite, but with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent.I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't co= ntribute with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete= a lot of my work, because they don't fit into some future official tem= plate or list of criteria.

Vocabulary
1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of ea= ch gismu as distinct valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc?
=

Absolutely not. Ideally, there would be a = {filjvo} algorithm and list that covers those, so that a print dictionary w= ould not have them and a digital dictionary could look them up on the fly. = The prefix and suffix forms could be listed in the print dictionary for eas= e of use.

2. What kind of cmene/cmevla shoul= d be added? (with no restriction this set could be extremely large)

None. A separate cmevla dictionary could exist, but tha= t would be more descriptive than prescriptive.

For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene= that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most co= mmon names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name o= f the street where you are living and shit like that.

3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?

<= /div>
Common stage 3 fu'ivla; ideally not many. A separate fu'i= vla dictionary, also descriptive could be useful.

With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets,= we are going to have a very huge dictionary.
I've been trying to tr= anslate some names of species into lujvo (the solution I prefer), but the l= atin names are often not very descriptive and/or logical, so I think one of= the better solution (at least for names of species etc, you use relative o= ften) is to just lojbanize the latin names into fu'ivla.

You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice = to have some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe loj= ban standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific d= isciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little= as Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), but= still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the offic= ial language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't wa= nt to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible f= uture.

4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?

When the same people who can okay an experime= ntal gismu say so; ideally they would do so with more leniency than with gi= smu, but it should still be an official and regulated process.

I know some lojbanist don't li= ke stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. The prefix in the stage-3 fu'= ;ivla help you understand a little what this foreign word is about. And you= could make distinctions easily between for example {spatrvanila}, {grutrva= nila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvanila} "vanilla seed" and {= xukmrvanila} vanillin.

The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural sp= ecific, not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily f= it into some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says= : "[stage-4] are used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so i= mportant that it must be made as short as possible."

But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the = cause of making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of th= is species before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good fla= vor to the language, even if this at the same time means that we're goi= ng to learn a lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But st= age-4 fu'ivlas could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi&= #39;ikca}.

Form
I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before= publishing a printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to rea= d through all jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before pr= inting. But if we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add= valsi in the same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the = future.

1. Form of definition
Which format do you think should be standard?<= br>
{nerkla}:
a. n₁=3Dk₁ enters n₂= =3Dk₂ from origin k₃ via route k₄ using me= ans/vehicle k₅

b.x1=3Dn₁=3Dk₁ enters x2=3Dn₂=3Dk_=
2 from origin x3=3Dk₃ via route x4=3Dk₄ using m= eans/vehicle x5=3Dk₅

c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via r= oute x4 using means/vehicle x5

I like b.

2. Etymology
I suggest that we don't add etymology info= in the notes, but use the "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so yo= u can discuss which language to borrow from.
This is a paranthetical but= important question if lojban has ambition to be as cultural neutral as pos= sible.
So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of speci= es, the language most related to the specific cultural phenomena/object (or= a derivate of languages if many cultures share the same phenomena/object, = or in that case maybe esperanto).

3. How much info in the notes?

And also a final question: Is it = possible for a user to edit another user's notes in jbovlaste, to add i= nfo?

4. Experimental gismu/cmavo
I think that's BPFK job to c= onsider if these words ever are going to be official. How does the procedur= e looks like for this?

mu'omi'e jongausib

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/5yhXyYpO5eYJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

I vie= w a standard lojban dictionary almost like a formal protocol, which many pe= ople will (whether we like it or not) expand upon with informal ones (fu= 9;ivla, names, etc.). A descriptive documentation of the informal ones woul= d be nice, but a prescription on the set of standard words and meanings you= are allowed to use if you want every lojbanist to understand you is {pe= 9;i} consistent with the goals of lojban.

--
mu'o mi&#= 39;e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d04287a1755f4e104d341daf6--