On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:55 AM, jongausib <so.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

If there's someday is going to be a complete= , official lojban=20 dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste=20 should contain and in which form.

Right now the dictionary is rather= finite, but with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent.I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't contribute= with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a lot o= f my work, because they don't fit into some future official template or lis= t of criteria.

Vocabulary
1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of ea= ch gismu as distinct valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc?

Absolutely not. Ideally, there would be a {fil= jvo} algorithm and list that covers those, so that a print dictionary would= not have them and a digital dictionary could look them up on the fly. The = prefix and suffix forms could be listed in the print dictionary for ease of= use.

2. What kind of cmene/cmevla shoul= d be added? (with no restriction this set could be extremely large)

None. A separate cmevla dictionary could exist, but tha= t would be more descriptive than prescriptive.

.ie we have wikipedia for that.

<= div>

For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene= that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most co= mmon names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name o= f the street where you are living and shit like that.

3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?

Common stage 3 fu'ivla; ideally not many. A separate fu'ivla dictiona= ry, also descriptive could be useful.

With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets,= we are going to have a very huge dictionary.
I've been trying to transl= ate some names of species into lujvo (the solution I prefer), but the latin= names are often not very descriptive and/or logical, so I think one of the= better solution (at least for names of species etc, you use relative often= ) is to just lojbanize the latin names into fu'ivla.

You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice to h= ave some guidelines document
ed somewhere about sta= ndards. I believe lojban standards about biology, chemistry, music theory a= nd other scientific disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of = lojban (as little as Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of Engli= sh language), but still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a leve= l below the official language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines i= f we don't want to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in= a possible future.

4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?

When the same people who can okay an experimental= gismu say so; ideally they would do so with more leniency than with gismu,= but it should still be an official and regulated process.

I know some lojbanist don't like s= tage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. The prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help y= ou understand a little what this foreign word is about. And you could make = distinctions easily between for example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanil= la pod", {tsijrvanila} "vanilla seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin.

The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural specif= ic, not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fit into = some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: "[stage-4]= are used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must= be made as short as possible."

But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the cause of= making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this species b= efore), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to the langu= age, even if this at the same time means that we're going to learn a lot of= inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'ivlas could= be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}.

Form
I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before= publishing a printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to rea= d through all jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before pr= inting. But if we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add= valsi in the same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the = future.

1. Form of definition
Which format do you think should be standard?<= br>
{nerkla}:
a. n₁=3Dk₁ enters n₂= =3Dk₂ from origin k₃ via route k₄ using me= ans/vehicle k₅

b.x1=3Dn₁=3Dk₁ enters x2=3Dn₂=3Dk_=
2 from origin x3=3Dk₃ via route x4=3Dk₄ using m= eans/vehicle x5=3Dk₅

c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via r= oute x4 using means/vehicle x5

I like b.

2. Etymology
I suggest that we don't add etymology info in = the notes, but use the "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you ca= n discuss which language to borrow from.
This is a paranthetical but imp= ortant question if lojban has ambition to be as cultural neutral as possibl= e.
So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of speci= es, the language most related to the specific cultural phenomena/object (or= a derivate of languages if many cultures share the same phenomena/object, = or in that case maybe esperanto).

3. How much info in the notes?

And also a final question: Is it = possible for a user to edit another user's notes in jbovlaste, to add info?=

4. Experimental gismu/cmavo
I think that's BPFK job to consider = if these words ever are going to be official. How does the procedure looks = like for this?

mu'omi'e jongausib

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I view a standard lojban di= ctionary almost like a formal protocol, which many people will (whether we = like it or not) expand upon with informal ones (fu'ivla, names, etc.). A de= scriptive documentation of the informal ones would be nice, but a prescript= ion on the set of standard words and meanings you are allowed to use if you= want every lojbanist to understand you is {pe'i} consistent with the goals= of lojban.

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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