Received: from mail-bk0-f64.google.com ([209.85.214.64]:44953) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tus3G-0003Ag-2A; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:49 -0800 Received: by mail-bk0-f64.google.com with SMTP id jk13sf1831072bkc.29 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=yNFdS51JRMjG2oKpV2xPxc6GG9iVAgnCVnVQcKUc6A8=; b=gX/3sUkQw59Voa4Bv99/BUtgLxgxm0HPblesjNUzV7igcc6M+BCfzyzw0bt38EQt+q QSW70Fj6DQbbXX66nkov5fK4tiaD53NuqSkeYOYo8AbzdErAlqe7Kfi23SqRWCdso22u q0F/csILipk1Hfy/9t36OxExxk+fyvH7x9lfcRTeIDS5TX39i7pFqb85pIiPZfVisXig RXtL2q/sac/UEo18RIN8SeAXzj2s4YBeJaMHe49uDwaVBSiIL1mHxXQrUMBwG7JorMce SzF9lwTUJp0iPU2uSJdPF9qqLuwJ6BLifOVkp0yPHBHS35KaxWRI9tvD78gU4UKAInOu 7zwg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=yNFdS51JRMjG2oKpV2xPxc6GG9iVAgnCVnVQcKUc6A8=; b=B+VQSPJxO8tZVqM0wPDqN04zmQfhLtl+4nKIqG55GvYC3aO8uxb6hUoCIn9yi6Ja/p JsTz+NmrlScTe+oqgt+U+q3iAiQqTo91waD4iOoFM0xGZ8RD1a/6XPceUmPiJrKwj65w gFiMxuwNM2OUDEaRh/6cAyI/C4o2hCEdDs94UZw1K8MXshWuzIYahsnPTAQ1grF38RIg dd7mOtmQJbqslUsavv0FvVowC/iAeCIRbxyIJPrygwAhfn0I34HN3TJ2PrLI2eGlhwoi dzrIdkcVoEsBJSWf+eGOc+Zh7RLznrLUgFHQVTB3BfV8A/UEx8oJaw5rqW/4eQD9NwMD x46g== X-Received: by 10.180.86.232 with SMTP id s8mr9913wiz.20.1358200714483; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.90.200 with SMTP id by8ls1417328wib.6.gmail; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.0.196 with SMTP id 44mr108567121eeb.6.1358200713823; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.0.196 with SMTP id 44mr108567120eeb.6.1358200713793; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ea0-f175.google.com (mail-ea0-f175.google.com [209.85.215.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z44si5367139een.0.2013.01.14.13.58.33 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.175; Received: by mail-ea0-f175.google.com with SMTP id d1so729333eab.6 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.209.131 with SMTP id s3mr26563822eeo.28.1358200713600; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.127.7 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <0b08fe94-33a4-484f-a7c3-dcd52cbc41b8@googlegroups.com> References: <88bd2464-6efd-4252-9ff6-7c4f68f79e89@googlegroups.com> <0b08fe94-33a4-484f-a7c3-dcd52cbc41b8@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:58:33 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] criteria for the dictionary From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Fr=F6jd?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b603bce115d9d04d346bf3d X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b603bce115d9d04d346bf3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You should be able to edit it. Try this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AvnLFjv5QIE9dDBWYlJJUTdaTnRi= VnpyTmtyRUllTVE 2013/1/14 la gleki > > > On Monday, January 14, 2013 5:26:26 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote: >> >> wrong format. So here a link that works: >> >> https://docs.google.com/**spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D** >> 0AvnLFjv5QIE9dE1IM3lQMkk3LTNzb**VJ2UEVmamdzeEE > > > Although I prefer everything to be stored in one place I linked your doc > in "Lojban berries". However, we can't edit your file. > Does it mean it's gonna be an authoring work? If so it's ok. > Crowd-sourcing projects being not well-thought can soon turn the project > into a mess becuse of different opinions of the authors. > > >> >> >> >> 2013/1/14 Sebastian Fr=F6jd >> >>> Here's a link to my project of translating latin names of plants into >>> lojban. Please contribute! >>> Sorry for a lot of swedish comments in the document. It was meant only >>> as private notes from the beginning, but I now think it's better to pub= lish >>> it on internet like gleki did with his projects. >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/file/**d/0B_**nLFjv5QIE9YTZ5MU9pM2lpUkU/edit >>> >>> mu'omi'e jongausib >>> >>> >>> 2013/1/14 jongausib >>> >>>> If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban >>>> dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlast= e >>>> should contain and in which form. >>>> >>>> Right now the dictionary is rather finite, but with more contributors >>>> it could expand to an extreme extent. >>>> I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't >>>> contribute with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone >>>> delete a lot of my work, because they don't fit into some future offic= ial >>>> template or list of criteria. >>>> >>>> *Vocabulary* >>>> 1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of each gismu as distinct >>>> valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc? >>>> >>>> 2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction thi= s >>>> set could be extremely large) >>>> >>>> For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmen= e >>>> that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the mos= t >>>> common names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the= name >>>> of the street where you are living and shit like that. >>>> >>>> 3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added? >>>> >>>> With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets= , >>>> we are going to have a very huge dictionary. >>>> I've been trying to translate some names of species into lujvo (the >>>> solution I prefer), but the latin names are often not very descriptive >>>> and/or logical, so I think one of the better solution (at least for na= mes >>>> of species etc, you use relative often) is to just lojbanize the latin >>>> names into fu'ivla. >>>> >>>> You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice to >>>> have some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe l= ojban >>>> standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific >>>> disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as litt= le as >>>> Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), bu= t >>>> still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the >>>> official language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we do= n't >>>> want to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a pos= sible >>>> future. >>>> >>>> 4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary? >>>> >>>> I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-3. >>>> The prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what th= is >>>> foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between = for >>>> example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvanila} "van= illa >>>> seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin. >>>> >>>> The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural >>>> specific, not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easil= y fit >>>> into some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: >>>> "[stage-4] are used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so importa= nt >>>> that it must be made as short as possible." >>>> >>>> But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the cause o= f >>>> making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this speci= es >>>> before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to the >>>> language, even if this at the same time means that we're going to lear= n a >>>> lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu'= ivlas >>>> could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}. >>>> >>>> *Form* >>>> I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before publishing a >>>> printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to read through= all >>>> jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before printing. B= ut if >>>> we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add valsi in = the >>>> same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the future. >>>> >>>> 1. Form of definition >>>> Which format do you think should be standard? >>>> >>>> {nerkla}: >>>> a. n1=3Dk1 enters n2=3Dk2 from origin k3 via route k4 using means/vehi= cle k >>>> 5 >>>> >>>> b.x1=3Dn1=3Dk1 enters x2=3Dn2=3Dk2 from origin x3=3Dk3 via route x4=3D= k4 using >>>> means/vehicle x5=3Dk5 >>>> >>>> c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5 >>>> >>>> 2. Etymology >>>> I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the notes, but use the >>>> "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste. >>>> >>>> I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you >>>> can discuss which language to borrow from. >>>> This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition >>>> to be as cultural neutral as possible. >>>> So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of >>>> species, the language most related to the specific cultural >>>> phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultures share th= e >>>> same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto). >>>> >>>> 3. How much info in the notes? >>>> >>>> And also a final question: Is it possible for a user to edit another >>>> user's notes in jbovlaste, to add info? >>>> >>>> 4. Experimental gismu/cmavo >>>> I think that's BPFK job to consider if these words ever are going to b= e >>>> official. How does the procedure looks like for this? >>>> >>>> mu'omi'e jongausib >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/*= * >>>> msg/lojban/-/5yhXyYpO5eYJ >>>> . >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/lojban?hl=3Den . >>>> >>> >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/NujKsrjkuoMJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --047d7b603bce115d9d04d346bf3d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You should be able to edit it.

Try this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AvnLFjv5QIE9dDBWYlJJ= UTdaTnRiVnpyTmtyRUllTVE


2013/1/14 la gleki <= ;gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com>


On Monday, January 14, 2013 5:26:26 PM UTC+4, jon= gausib wrote:
wrong format. So here = a link that works:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key= =3D0AvnLFjv5QIE9dE1IM3lQMkk3LTNzbVJ2UEVmamdzeEE

Although I prefer everything to be stored in one = place I linked your doc in "Lojban berries". However, we can'= t edit your file.
Does it mean it's gonna be an authoring wor= k? If so it's ok. Crowd-sourcing projects being not well-thought can so= on turn the project into a mess becuse of different opinions of the authors= .





2013/1/14 Sebastian Fr=F6jd <so.co...@gmail.com>
Here's a link to my project of translating latin names of plants into l= ojban. Please contribute!
Sorry for a lot of swedish comments in the doc= ument. It was meant only as private notes from the beginning, but I now thi= nk it's better to publish it on internet like gleki did with his projec= ts.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_nLF= jv5QIE9YTZ5MU9pM2lpUkU/edit

mu'omi'e jongausib


2013/1/14 jongausib &l= t;so.co...@gmail.com>
If there's someda= y is going to be a complete, official lojban=20 dictionary, I think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste= =20 should contain and in which form.

Right now the dictionary is rather= finite, but with more contributors it could expand to an extreme extent.I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't co= ntribute with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete= a lot of my work, because they don't fit into some future official tem= plate or list of criteria.

Vocabulary
1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of ea= ch gismu as distinct valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc?
=
2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction this= set could be extremely large)

For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmene= that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the most co= mmon names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the name o= f the street where you are living and shit like that.

3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?

With ALL names of s= pecies and chemical substances and other large sets, we are going to have a= very huge dictionary.
I've been trying to translate some names of s= pecies into lujvo (the solution I prefer), but the latin names are often no= t very descriptive and/or logical, so I think one of the better solution (a= t least for names of species etc, you use relative often) is to just lojban= ize the latin names into fu'ivla.

You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice = to have some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe loj= ban standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific d= isciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as little= as Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), but= still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the offic= ial language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we don't wa= nt to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a possible f= uture.

4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?
I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like stage-= 3. The prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what = this foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between = for example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrvan= ila} "vanilla seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin.

The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural sp= ecific, not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily f= it into some cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says= : "[stage-4] are used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so i= mportant that it must be made as short as possible."

But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the = cause of making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of th= is species before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good fla= vor to the language, even if this at the same time means that we're goi= ng to learn a lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But st= age-4 fu'ivlas could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi&= #39;ikca}.

Form
I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format before= publishing a printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to rea= d through all jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before pr= inting. But if we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add= valsi in the same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the = future.

1. Form of definition
Which format do you think should be standard?<= br>
{nerkla}:
a. n1=3Dk1 enters n2= =3Dk2 from origin k3 via route k4 using me= ans/vehicle k5

b.x1=3Dn1=3Dk1 enters x2=3Dn2=3Dk= 2 from origin x3=3Dk3 via route x4=3Dk4 using m= eans/vehicle x5=3Dk5

c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via r= oute x4 using means/vehicle x5

2. Etymology
I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the n= otes, but use the "add etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I thi= nk etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so you can dis= cuss which language to borrow from.
This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition to be= as cultural neutral as possible.
So one recommendation could be that yo= u always use latin for names of species, the language most related to the s= pecific cultural phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultu= res share the same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto).

3. How much info in the notes?

And also a final question: Is it = possible for a user to edit another user's notes in jbovlaste, to add i= nfo?

4. Experimental gismu/cmavo
I think that's BPFK job to c= onsider if these words ever are going to be official. How does the procedur= e looks like for this?

mu'omi'e jongausib








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