2013/1/14 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.o= rg>

On Monday, January 14, 2013 04:55:12 jongausib wrote:
> If there's someday is going to be a complete, official lojban dict= ionary, I
> think there's a need for some criteria for what jbovlaste should c= ontain
> and in which form.
>
> Right now the dictionary is rather finite, but with more contributors = it
> could expand to an extreme extent.
> I think it's a good idea to discuss this issue now, so I don't= contribute
> with a lot of valsi now, and then a few years later someone delete a l= ot of
> my work, because they don't fit into some future official template= or list
> of criteria.
>

> *Vocabulary*

> 1. Should we try to add lujvo for all places of each= gismu as distinct
> valsi, like {seldri}, {selbai}, {terni'i} etc?

Only if they are glossed as different words, such as "tervecnu&q= uot;. We don't need
lots of entries for "species of <animal>".

> 2. What kind of cmene/cmevla should be added? (with no restriction thi= s set
> could be extremely large)

Names of countries, cities, oblasti, cantons, etc.
Names of diseases.
Names of well-known people (including Lojbanists who are well-known among Lojbanists but may not be well-known to the world).
Given names (there may be more than one form of a given name).
Probably some others. I just added "relcibjolmib", a few days aft= er hearing la
.camgusmis. talk about it (in English).

A few names can't be entered because they're two or more words (e.g= .
"kot.divu=E1r").

Hm.. why not add a new = cathegory called "cmene cluster" for names consisting of more tha= n one word?

> For example, we could add recommendation that you only should add cmen= e
> that could be regarded as having a lexicographical value, like the mos= t
> common names of persons, companies, geographical entities etc. Not the= name
> of the street where you are living and shit like that.
>
> 3. What kind of fu'ivla should be added?
>
> With ALL names of species and chemical substances and other large sets= , we
> are going to have a very huge dictionary.
> I've been trying to translate some names of species into lujvo (th= e
> solution I prefer), but the latin names are often not very descriptive=
> and/or logical, so I think one of the better solution (at least for na= mes
> of species etc, you use relative often) is to just lojbanize the latin=
> names into fu'ivla.
>
> You'll probably already discussed this a lot, but it would be nice= to have
> some guidelines documented somewhere about standards. I believe lojban=
> standards about biology, chemistry, music theory and other scientific<= br> > disciplines, doesn't belong to the official grammar of lojban (as = little as
> Oxford style manual is normative for ALL kind of English language), bu= t
> still it would be nice to have such guidelines (on a level below the > official language). Especially jbovlaste need such guidelines if we do= n't
> want to have an inconsistent dictionary with a dukse of words in a pos= sible
> future.

You'll have trouble entering many species names, because they'= ;re at least
three words, such as "cionmau la barda" or "maxri la .durum.= ". Go for genera
and up. But don't try to enter every single genus of fish until there a= re
Lojbanic ichthylogists who would need to use them. I've added a few suc= h as
"skomberu".

Languages and ethnicities: there are only a few thousand of these, so enter= ing
a few hundred wouldn't overload the dictionary. I'd enter "pin= tupi" (which
I've mentioned) and maybe "olkola" (which is a valid fu'i= vla), but not
"Oykangand" (a language closely related to Olkola) until someone = figured out
the right way to Lojbanize it.

Chemicals: we need to figure out the proper way to Lojbanize IUPAC before entering IUPAC lujvo. Simple-named chemicals, such as geosmin (derpanxu'= ;i) or
capsaicin (xumrkapsiku), can be entered already. 1,1,1-trichloro-2,2-di(4-<= br> chlorophenyl)ethane will have to wait. Numbers are used three ways in chemi= cal
names (the other is to indicate an oxidation state or valency), and we have=
just the one set of numbers to use in lujvo. I've proposed some experim= ental
gismu for use in chemical names, such as "xudvu" (aldehyde).
<= /blockquote>

I've been wondering about IUPAC-terminology and lo= jban. Wouldn't it be possible to use lojban features as {joi}, {ke}, {x= i}, {mei} within the rules of the IUPAC system somehow to have lujvos like = =A0 1,1,1-trichloro-2,2-di(4-chlorophenyl)ethane ?

> 4. When is it ok to add a stage-4 fui'vla in the dictionary?
>
> I know some lojbanist don't like stage-3 fu'ivla. I do like st= age-3. The
> prefix in the stage-3 fu'ivla help you understand a little what th= is
> foreign word is about. And you could make distinctions easily between = for
> example {spatrvanila}, {grutrvanila} "vanilla pod", {tsijrva= nila} "vanilla
> seed" and {xukmrvanila} vanillin.
>
> The only stage-4 fu'ivla I add are those which are very cultural s= pecific,
> not easily constructed as a lujvo and/or which doesn't easily fit = into some
> cathegory. Stage-4 fu'ivla should also be useful. CLL says: "= [stage-4] are
> used where a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it = must be
> made as short as possible."
>
> But as long as you don't add stage-4 without cause (what's the= cause of
> making {konjaku} a stage-4 for example? I've never heard of this s= pecies
> before), I think those fu'ivlas could really give a good flavor to= the
> language, even if this at the same time means that we're going to = learn a
> lot of inconsistent words just like learning natlangs. But stage-4 fu&= #39;ivlas
> could be really cool, my favourites are {iklki} and {fi'ikca}.

Konjac is a common ingredient in Japanese cuisine. Ok, then I add se&= #39;emla. Common pastry in Sweden.

For words that fit into the type-4 format without too much squishing, I don= 't
see anything wrong with using type 4 to begin with, except where the type-4=
could easily be interpreted as two unrelated things. For instance, I wouldn= 't
use the word "malpigi", as it could equally well mean acerola (ru= trmalpigi) or
an insect's excretory organ (ragrmalpigi), both named for Marcello Malp= ighi.
This turned out to happen with "konjaku" (someone thought it'= s cognac, which
is koinka), but I didn't find out until after I entered it, as I was th= inking
of the Japanese word, which is unrelated to the French word.

I think "tcigaso" should be used as type-4 already. Most people w= ith cars use
it.

> *Form*

> I think jbovlaste should have a consistent format be= fore publishing a
> printed version. Some poor fellow would therefore have to read through= all
> jbovlaste and edit it into a consistent format just before printing. B= ut if
> we would have guidelines from now on already, and we all add valsi in = the
> same way, there are going to be less work for someone in the future. >
> 1. Form of definition
> Which format do you think should be standard?
>
> {nerkla}:
> a. n1=3Dk1 enters n2=3Dk2 from origin k3 via route k4 using means/vehi= cle k5
>
> b.x1=3Dn1=3Dk1 enters x2=3Dn2=3Dk2 from origin x3=3Dk3 via route x4=3D= k4 using
> means/vehicle x5=3Dk5
>
> c. x1 enters x2 from origin x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5

a for lujvo where the arguments are in order, b where they are not in= order, c
for fu'ivla.

Sounds like a good rule.

> 2. Etymology
> I suggest that we don't add etymology info in the notes, but use t= he "add
> etymology"-link in jbovlaste.

I agree. That's what it's there for.

> I think etymology should be mandatory for cmevla and fu'ivla, so y= ou can
> discuss which language to borrow from.
> This is a paranthetical but important question if lojban has ambition = to be
> as cultural neutral as possible.
> So one recommendation could be that you always use latin for names of<= br> > species, the language most related to the specific cultural
> phenomena/object (or a derivate of languages if many cultures share th= e
> same phenomena/object, or in that case maybe esperanto).

I wouldn't always use Latin for species. "skomberu", &q= uot;polgosu", "sperlanu",
"merlanu", and "merluci" are all from Greek, Latin, or = some descendant thereof
(though "sperlanu" has a Germanic root), but for the capelin, an = important
forage fish that circles Iceland, I picked the Icelandic word as a source.<= br>

> 3. How much info in the notes?
>
> And also a final question: Is it possible for a user to edit another u= ser's
> notes in jbovlaste, to add info?

It is possible for one user to edit another's definition, but sho= uld be done
sparingly. Jbovlaste isn't Wiktionary.

Speaking of Wiktionary, there are Wiktionaries in English, French, Lojban, = and
other languages. The English Wiktionary, for any modern language (including=
Lojban), requires that three different people agree on a word at least a ye= ar
ago, or it appear in some well-known work. The Lojban Wiktionary doesn'= t, and
the French Wiktionary accepts Tsolyani words, which the English Wiktionary<= br> doesn't. You can enter phrases like "lo xamgu ko li'i" in= Wiktionary, but not
jbovlaste.

Pierre
--
La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

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