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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 06:09:46 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] What is the source of gismu *definitions*?
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On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:55:17 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
>
> la gleki wrote:=20
> > jbovlaste is fine. The main problem with e.g. computer terminology is=
=20
> > that there should be one style while creating those terms.=20
>
> Why?=20
>
> There are no stylistic rules for Lojban.=20
>
> > if e.g. "log in" is {co'a se jaspu} and "log out" {co'u pilno lo jaspu}=
=20
> > then there is something wrong.=20
>
> not necessarily.=20
>
> It merely means that whoever conceived the two words/expressions (which=
=20
> may or may not have been the same person) did not happen to conceive of=
=20
> their relationship in the systematic dichotomy that is implied by those=
=20
> two English phrases.=20
>
> I note that alternative English phrases "log on" and "log off" are also=
=20
> used, and I have no doubt that there are people who "log in" and "log=20
> off", while still others "gain access" and "log off".=20
>
> > jbovlaste will turn into a mess.=20
>
> Language semantics is messy, in this sense, so we would expect any=20
> dictionary to be a mess.=20
>
> > When we decide on the only style for most computer terms then=20
>
> ... people will ignore that style.=20
>
> In particular, >I< will ignore that style.  One of the few things I=20
> still actively do with Lojban is to think of alternative ways to say=20
> things, not seeking the ONE TRUE WAY, but simply a different way.=20
>

I completely agree. Then you can say that i created that list in order to=
=20
sort words by styles, not to find one style.

It'd be strange to see in one lojbanised app {co'a se jaspu} in one GUI=20
element and {co'u pilno lo jaspu} in another element.

Use either {co'a/co'u se jaspu} or {co'a/co'u pilno lo jaspu} or what=20
aionys just suggested but don't mix them.
=20

>
> And there is no plan for byfy to decide stylistics, and no one else has=
=20
> the authority to decide anything about the language design, so "we" will=
=20
> not decide on "the only style".=20
>

Sure. Otherwise it wouldn't be a live language.
=20

>
> It was never intended that there be only one formally approved term for=
=20
> a given semantic concept.


I understand that. Surprisingly many people think that lojban is not only=
=20
syntactical unambiguous.
Even Wikipedia and the CLL lie in that regard a bit.

=20

>  If technical people in one field or project=20
> want to pragmatically restrict themselves to a jargon subset of the=20
> language vocabulary for purposes of rigor, that is their choice, but the=
=20
> rest of us will not be so-limited.=20
>
>
> > we'll add themand any spreadsheet temporary lists will be removed.=20
>
> I have no idea how the concept "spreadsheet temporary lists" fits=20
> jbovlaste.=20
>
> ANYONE can add words to jbovlaste, so far as I know.  And they need not=
=20
> follow any particular style.=20
>
> > Note that the wiki has plenty of pages with proposals for such terms=20
> > (not only computer terms).=20
> > Nobody developed them.=20
>
> ??? Pages don't just appear out of thin cyberspace.  Someone had to=20
> write them.=20
>
> > And still nobody complained that those pages existed.=20
>
> I am sure that someone somewhere has complained about them.  EVERYTHING=
=20
> gets complained about at some point. zo'o=20
>
> But I have no problem with them.=20
>
> > If there is really strong rejection of spreadsheet lists and nobody=20
> > gonna add such terms into jbovlaste (I really don't know how=20
>
> I don't know how to use jbovlaste either, or any other online Lojban=20
> tool.  I don't think in terms of online tools, and forever procrastinate=
=20
> on learning to use them.  (If I used a cell phone, which I don't, I=20
> likely wouldn't use apps either).=20
>

^ ^ I think most lojbanists should think of that. Where were computers=20
when P=C4=81=E1=B9=87ini and Zamenhof were creating their projects ? (Sanks=
rit and=20
Esperanto for those who don't know these names).

=20

>
> But those who want to add to that particular dictionary need to learn=20
> how to do so.  If they don't, then their words might not get added.=20
>
> > then I'll finish the list myself anyway and=20
> > present it just here in mriste.If still nobody is interested then i'll=
=20
> > just start using it myself without asking anyone to check the list.=20
>
> That is perfectly acceptable, and indeed somewhat preferable for jargon.=
=20
>
> Lists of jargon will always be specific to a particular field or=20
> application, and won't be understood/used correctly by those not=20
> involved in that field or application.  But of the words are in=20
> jbovlaste, people will presume that they are usable.  And they likely=20
> won't use them with the semantic precision that a jargonist would expect.=
=20
>
> Even more likely, slightly different fields might use the same jargon=20
> word with slightly different semantic intent.  I suspect that the=20
> definitions of specific computer jargon has somewhat different meaning=20
> to a Javascript programmer than to someone like me who last=20
> significantly programmed in TurboPascal some 15-20 years ago (I've done=
=20
> a couple of short macros in Excel since then, but no real programming).=
=20
>
> lojbab=20
> --=20
> Bob LeChevalier    loj...@lojban.org <javascript:>    www.lojban.org=20
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.=20
>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo=
jban/-/3qUquUaZlEoJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


------=_Part_424_2853339.1358345386510
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:55:17 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; jbovlaste is fine. The main problem with e.g. computer terminology=
 is
<br>&gt; that there should be one style while creating those terms.
<br>
<br>Why?
<br>
<br>There are no stylistic rules for Lojban.
<br>
<br>&gt; if e.g. "log in" is {co'a se jaspu} and "log out" {co'u pilno lo j=
aspu}
<br>&gt; then there is something wrong.
<br>
<br>not necessarily.
<br>
<br>It merely means that whoever conceived the two words/expressions (which=
=20
<br>may or may not have been the same person) did not happen to conceive of=
=20
<br>their relationship in the systematic dichotomy that is implied by those=
=20
<br>two English phrases.
<br>
<br>I note that alternative English phrases "log on" and "log off" are also=
=20
<br>used, and I have no doubt that there are people who "log in" and "log=
=20
<br>off", while still others "gain access" and "log off".
<br>
<br>&gt; jbovlaste will turn into a mess.
<br>
<br>Language semantics is messy, in this sense, so we would expect any=20
<br>dictionary to be a mess.
<br>
<br>&gt; When we decide on the only style for most computer terms then
<br>
<br>... people will ignore that style.
<br>
<br>In particular, &gt;I&lt; will ignore that style. &nbsp;One of the few t=
hings I=20
<br>still actively do with Lojban is to think of alternative ways to say=20
<br>things, not seeking the ONE TRUE WAY, but simply a different way.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I completely agree. Then you can say t=
hat i created that list in order to sort words by styles, not to find one s=
tyle.</div><div><br></div><div>It'd be strange to see in one lojbanised app=
 {co'a se jaspu} in one GUI element and {co'u pilno lo jaspu} in another el=
ement.</div><div><br></div><div>Use either {co'a/co'u se jaspu} or {co'a/co=
'u pilno lo jaspu} or what aionys just suggested but don't mix them.</div><=
div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>And there is no plan for byfy to decide stylistics, and no one else has=
=20
<br>the authority to decide anything about the language design, so "we" wil=
l=20
<br>not decide on "the only style".
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure. Otherwise it wouldn't be a live =
language.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;=
">
<br>It was never intended that there be only one formally approved term for=
=20
<br>a given semantic concept.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I understand =
that. Surprisingly many people think that lojban is not only syntactical un=
ambiguous.</div><div>Even Wikipedia and the CLL lie in that regard a bit.</=
div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;"> &nbsp;If technical people in one field or project=20
<br>want to pragmatically restrict themselves to a jargon subset of the=20
<br>language vocabulary for purposes of rigor, that is their choice, but th=
e=20
<br>rest of us will not be so-limited.
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; we'll add themand any spreadsheet temporary lists will be removed.
<br>
<br>I have no idea how the concept "spreadsheet temporary lists" fits jbovl=
aste.
<br>
<br>ANYONE can add words to jbovlaste, so far as I know. &nbsp;And they nee=
d not=20
<br>follow any particular style.
<br>
<br>&gt; Note that the wiki has plenty of pages with proposals for such ter=
ms
<br>&gt; (not only computer terms).
<br>&gt; Nobody developed them.
<br>
<br>??? Pages don't just appear out of thin cyberspace. &nbsp;Someone had t=
o=20
<br>write them.
<br>
<br>&gt; And still nobody complained that those pages existed.
<br>
<br>I am sure that someone somewhere has complained about them. &nbsp;EVERY=
THING=20
<br>gets complained about at some point. zo'o
<br>
<br>But I have no problem with them.
<br>
<br>&gt; If there is really strong rejection of spreadsheet lists and nobod=
y
<br>&gt; gonna add such terms into jbovlaste (I really don't know how
<br>
<br>I don't know how to use jbovlaste either, or any other online Lojban=20
<br>tool. &nbsp;I don't think in terms of online tools, and forever procras=
tinate=20
<br>on learning to use them. &nbsp;(If I used a cell phone, which I don't, =
I=20
<br>likely wouldn't use apps either).
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>^ ^ I think most lojbanists should thi=
nk of that. Where were computers when&nbsp;P=C4=81=E1=B9=87ini and Zamenhof=
 were creating their projects ? (Sanksrit and Esperanto for those who don't=
 know these names).</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>But those who want to add to that particular dictionary need to learn=
=20
<br>how to do so. &nbsp;If they don't, then their words might not get added=
.
<br>
<br>&gt; then I'll finish the list myself anyway and
<br>&gt; present it just here in mriste.If still nobody is interested then =
i'll
<br>&gt; just start using it myself without asking anyone to check the list=
.
<br>
<br>That is perfectly acceptable, and indeed somewhat preferable for jargon=
.
<br>
<br>Lists of jargon will always be specific to a particular field or=20
<br>application, and won't be understood/used correctly by those not=20
<br>involved in that field or application. &nbsp;But of the words are in=20
<br>jbovlaste, people will presume that they are usable. &nbsp;And they lik=
ely=20
<br>won't use them with the semantic precision that a jargonist would expec=
t.
<br>
<br>Even more likely, slightly different fields might use the same jargon=
=20
<br>word with slightly different semantic intent. &nbsp;I suspect that the=
=20
<br>definitions of specific computer jargon has somewhat different meaning=
=20
<br>to a Javascript programmer than to someone like me who last=20
<br>significantly programmed in TurboPascal some 15-20 years ago (I've done=
=20
<br>a couple of short macros in Excel since then, but no real programming).
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br>--=20
<br>Bob LeChevalier &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" =
gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"0GoUCQ5FAQ4J">loj...@lojban.org</a> &nbsp; &nbsp;<=
a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">www.lojban.org</a>
<br>President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
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To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban/-/3qUquUaZlEoJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/3q=
UquUaZlEoJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
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