Received: from mail-pa0-f55.google.com ([209.85.220.55]:40690)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDBPJRUZSQARBUFZ3SDQKGQEG7L3SWI@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1Tvach-0006nA-T8; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:23 -0800
Received: by mail-pa0-f55.google.com with SMTP id fb1sf1110621pad.10
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:09 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=dhMQDWkn2KVCa5r+FKxefhwTcsRg5Sg5n11sn8hsYHQ=;
        b=QYMphl9gVsd3Cyk+x26ymHkcIyGCE85StSwZzh7y//vui7C9QQhASdDXpzxl8/znAe
         3RUnC6d11H/4qKVPEa/a4BaaAKPjVZ9RQbb9SiEMuUlxe6+1IsHDyHwkO5yN6IHX1/po
         XWoPDvGV8j8H6h+yMed+Cr4zwziZeTNZc4vh6LzEfXfm0MTNCUuyo40x1AKg5ivm98bd
         iez+jwGXxp6FcvBlcyqBVLUK1OIqu8UM9r1skcj/D3we2ZKiqruvb6H8Hlj3ZtM4upG1
         zGA1qERSA7pWwApts205oA1jNAo7+J06VlcNZPjDS7Fr3KXZ8kQnx3n2Kbt3Lf1HQydO
         fXZA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=dhMQDWkn2KVCa5r+FKxefhwTcsRg5Sg5n11sn8hsYHQ=;
        b=ffszj6vh5t7P/6PpjaVriVowHlF11cX8ghdeRoYh4l2xdxtSwhTCfbRMZGmN1+v3QE
         Lrsj7geY5wNjIZO0pBAaAaoZHfClnjxq4K5NpVkgD4zrHnerFSoYb4+GW34JgLCf/9gA
         Y48qDgkdNGqQdB6ydyWaGcx83V4Ov5Rv6XFwFbg9gVpOOOSDqe+wC8LQwt5NYMDKvwnU
         4nY/9kXX+ADIJn7Yb8OqqnkUfTzbiJRxXhxTiIZ0J88oxhI+1NkotQ1qXWqnDvNSTntK
         1mIu+izaYNn8XilwFEuSOh1OQJq+l8r8MeN4LbNkPUd4fdGu1t8sJWc968UJ55vDjaAx
         aeew==
X-Received: by 10.49.48.41 with SMTP id i9mr700861qen.36.1358372049260;
        Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:09 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.49.94.201 with SMTP id de9ls1231584qeb.5.gmail; Wed, 16 Jan
 2013 13:34:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.58.246.37 with SMTP id xt5mr909645vec.13.1358372048746;
        Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.58.246.37 with SMTP id xt5mr909644vec.13.1358372048733;
        Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-vb0-f53.google.com (mail-vb0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13si4380823vdh.0.2013.01.16.13.34.08
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:08 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53;
Received: by mail-vb0-f53.google.com with SMTP id b23so1794506vbz.26
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:08 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.220.218.197 with SMTP id hr5mr2943382vcb.8.1358372048588;
 Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.220.13.197 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:34:07 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <50F6A877.20208@lojban.org>
References: <f4128384-16f4-4cd2-b4cc-568bbc268271@googlegroups.com>
	<CAO7tK2e5idvKeNB-N0qybMz-FpvY4r-g_Xf9XuTWG3CtDiizOg@mail.gmail.com>
	<c622079a-95b1-41ce-8218-45a3c2e1cf2e@googlegroups.com>
	<CAP=UV6pdZ9hEedKHVRj2Rs2xuz0KP5ah7_NYcJ4oxoH7yb-tcg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130109142120.GF14601@samsa.fritz.box>
	<50ED84E7.7070405@gmx.de>
	<CA+gZtgKsAH5ZCZXivZ2y5PLnubaLwwHELAru65Aihe00HNGrkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKOEKkTRCaEJQgp74_mMnCvRYwWeGi44RuM12mo+X+owE=orCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+gZtgLoLjL4puB3PM9jip9Z1kZj3y+s_mFU1rxH8eo=MHJ=Kw@mail.gmail.com>
	<50F6A877.20208@lojban.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:34:07 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgKjMGZUpW2iX14McTUMA9cQkJsFiZSagx0PvrvP1P=6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] request for a new gismu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_memory
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com;       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53968646dd1c904d36ea385
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--bcaec53968646dd1c904d36ea385
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>
>  Until we know more about how the brain does memory, it seems presumptuous
> to claim that these are different "concepts" as opposed to different
> memories.
>
As gleki has pointed out, there is significant evidence that the two
actually are different. Also, although it is a small sample, at the time of
coming up with this idea several of us (tsani, gleki, and I, possibly
others) all realized that our ways of interacting with these types of
memories were significantly different, and that this seemed to be
responsible for several experiences with memory. For example, I remarked
that I remember certain concepts in mathematics in a way more similar to
how I remember experiences than to how I remember other facts, and that
these memories are inevitably more permanent and vivid than their
counterparts. gleki remarked that he had a brief epiphany of the importance
of this concept before quickly losing it to the lack of a word for it in
his native language.

> morji is NOT restricted to du'u.  The parenthetical use in the gismu list
> is NOT a restriction (and indeed there aren't really ANY restrictions so
> long as it is grammatical - the semantics of lojban has not been formally
> defined).
>
You may say that, but this type analysis is part of the way that the
language, as I've seen it in the last few years, has evolved. Evolved
restriction is not new to natlangs, why should it be new to conlangs?

> One can claim, I think somewhat arbitrarily), that memorizing a quote is a
> different sort of memory than a fact or an episode.  If so, one might make
> lujvo based on morji to distinguish the presumably different memory types
> of facts, quotes, and episodes, and define the place structure of the lujvo
> specific to your more restricted meaning.
>
> (I think I should note that such specialized and restricted-meaning lujvo
> are a type that is not necessarily achievable using jvajvo rules, because
> we didn't really build the tools for semantic-rules-based lujvo-making into
> the language - the concept of having rules to determine place structures
> was an afterthought regularization devised by Nick Nicolas as a result of
> his analysis of patterns of how people actually were making lujvo).
>
It's been stated already that the problem with going about this way is that
the lujvo that you would want to use for this concept have useful jvajvo
meanings which are distinct from this concept. "Remembering something about
an experience" and "remembering an experience" are both useful ideas which
should have separate terms.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--bcaec53968646dd1c904d36ea385
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=A0Until we know mor=
e about how the brain does memory, it seems=20
presumptuous to claim that these are different &quot;concepts&quot; as oppo=
sed to=20
different memories.</div></blockquote><div>As gleki has pointed out, there =
is significant evidence that the two actually are different. Also, although=
 it is a small sample, at the time of coming up with this idea several of u=
s (tsani, gleki, and I, possibly others) all realized that our ways of inte=
racting with these types of memories were significantly different, and that=
 this seemed to be responsible for several experiences with memory. For exa=
mple, I remarked that I remember certain concepts in mathematics in a way m=
ore similar to how I remember experiences than to how I remember other fact=
s, and that these memories are inevitably more permanent and vivid than the=
ir counterparts. gleki remarked that he had a brief epiphany of the importa=
nce of this concept before quickly losing it to the lack of a word for it i=
n his native language.<br>
</div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">morji is NOT restri=
cted to du&#39;u. =A0The parenthetical use in the gismu list is NOT a restr=
iction (and indeed there aren&#39;t really ANY restrictions so long as it i=
s grammatical - the semantics of lojban has not been formally defined).<br>
</blockquote><div>You may say that, but this type analysis is part of the w=
ay that the language, as I&#39;ve seen it in the last few years, has evolve=
d. Evolved restriction is not new to natlangs, why should it be new to conl=
angs?<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">
One can claim, I think somewhat arbitrarily), that memorizing a quote is a =
different sort of memory than a fact or an episode. =A0If so, one might mak=
e lujvo based on morji to distinguish the presumably different memory types=
 of facts, quotes, and episodes, and define the place structure of the lujv=
o specific to your more restricted meaning.<br>

<br>
(I think I should note that such specialized and restricted-meaning lujvo a=
re a type that is not necessarily achievable using jvajvo rules, because we=
 didn&#39;t really build the tools for semantic-rules-based lujvo-making in=
to the language - the concept of having rules to determine place structures=
 was an afterthought regularization devised by Nick Nicolas as a result of =
his analysis of patterns of how people actually were making lujvo).<br>
</blockquote><div>It&#39;s been stated already that the problem with going =
about this way is that the lujvo that you would want to use for this concep=
t have useful jvajvo meanings which are distinct from this concept. &quot;R=
emembering something about an experience&quot; and &quot;remembering an exp=
erience&quot; are both useful ideas which should have separate terms.<br>
<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--bcaec53968646dd1c904d36ea385--