Received: from mail-ie0-f186.google.com ([209.85.223.186]:55642)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBCRZPH6MCMINRDO6Q4CRUBDX6C7GO@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TvhgW-0000xa-22; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:06:52 -0800
Received: by mail-ie0-f186.google.com with SMTP id c14sf1149640ieb.23
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:06:33 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id
         :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=/K3qwJ9EIHeiPGC2GQeWqQ6ATXfqhMDudEYy48wh4/k=;
        b=PzGpNN3PfkSOBKQ546KW9e99zSsCtk1nrbnegID8Jn8UmGOH4a6JtXmegNSNQxwHPP
         ElExhvJeCDXFzYqDvFI65oSptPIjgvOcJ1CyuzViBjCCu+e1/39BHHVMIPn2nbB6KX+o
         aIgv36w/XFf5YIwGzGDJi8kLUPtAJRKKZIywR+kEFBXIDOVcwmzpyE8mNnBtgwrAHXIm
         s/YSGnA94GOUqsM7GCLZYAEZRWeMthX6aH6zL+zFS6vMLiGcXUYpAY6UQOlejMsdgDBg
         F4aBJOMHLQFPmWnlk8J7OAQ6SvyBe9WuKZemGFyjINckYXA5ftpr+F1LDcM0xPPfssKH
         MAWQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id
         :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=/K3qwJ9EIHeiPGC2GQeWqQ6ATXfqhMDudEYy48wh4/k=;
        b=gNqdYEwp5MW1C6qoCd3VsywnxPFd2Wh2le46a51A/Q8vPQzy9h7jq0Njx9YMzWfRnz
         ICLFXu5Uue7VYz4OvudfnzcU5yeRjQrQdFS+aEKRdiMB0BYrhiDJjyn019jPYNDBSThq
         GqnCkhbJ85yzycINyymu6GcpN2PkadYrHMrnH7UUI95ZfK9qteNu2Djm/zotb0TLZDuH
         VU48vYx71GDF27xr/bOOmA73SBmQvDwsuSOLwAhLfTxjhJq5PcyJc3Y3uysF3RAp46y4
         bYxXPKhmvzpnwvohboTeI1zh+pvw5oODJLJVdzDNyQusXanAAXByaThREbHiYeGWUlCB
         Q9aw==
X-Received: by 10.49.24.14 with SMTP id q14mr853129qef.17.1358399193078;
        Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:06:33 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.49.116.238 with SMTP id jz14ls1362683qeb.68.gmail; Wed, 16 Jan
 2013 21:06:32 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.49.72.169 with SMTP id e9mr858310qev.3.1358399192020;
        Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:06:32 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:06:31 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <8da8d71e-8c9b-4299-b9f9-e8c180f602a9@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CA+gZtgKjMGZUpW2iX14McTUMA9cQkJsFiZSagx0PvrvP1P=6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f4128384-16f4-4cd2-b4cc-568bbc268271@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7tK2e5idvKeNB-N0qybMz-FpvY4r-g_Xf9XuTWG3CtDiizOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c622079a-95b1-41ce-8218-45a3c2e1cf2e@googlegroups.com>
 <CAP=UV6pdZ9hEedKHVRj2Rs2xuz0KP5ah7_NYcJ4oxoH7yb-tcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130109142120.GF14601@samsa.fritz.box>
 <50ED84E7.7070405@gmx.de>
 <CA+gZtgKsAH5ZCZXivZ2y5PLnubaLwwHELAru65Aihe00HNGrkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKOEKkTRCaEJQgp74_mMnCvRYwWeGi44RuM12mo+X+owE=orCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+gZtgLoLjL4puB3PM9jip9Z1kZj3y+s_mFU1rxH8eo=MHJ=Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50F6A877.20208@lojban.org>
 <CA+gZtgKjMGZUpW2iX14McTUMA9cQkJsFiZSagx0PvrvP1P=6Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] request for a new gismu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_memory
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_319_12998155.1358399191657"
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

------=_Part_319_12998155.1358399191657
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



On Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:34:07 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>
>  Until we know more about how the brain does memory, it seems presumptuous 
>> to claim that these are different "concepts" as opposed to different 
>> memories.
>>
> As gleki has pointed out, there is significant evidence that the two 
> actually are different. Also, although it is a small sample, at the time of 
> coming up with this idea several of us (tsani, gleki, and I, possibly 
> others) all realized that our ways of interacting with these types of 
> memories were significantly different, and that this seemed to be 
> responsible for several experiences with memory. For example, I remarked 
> that I remember certain concepts in mathematics in a way more similar to 
> how I remember experiences than to how I remember other facts, and that 
> these memories are inevitably more permanent and vivid than their 
> counterparts. gleki remarked that he had a brief epiphany of the importance 
> of this concept before quickly losing it to the lack of a word for it in 
> his native language.
>

Thanks for dragging me into your team of insurgents zo'o. Honestly, it's 
not so easy for me to catch the meaning of this new gismu, BUT (!) 
periodically I start feeling the meaning of this new word. Probably 
starting using this word can help me and others fully understand the 
difference between morji and this new one. And therefore get rid of 
polysemy of morji in our minds. *Or may be prove this concept wrong.*

However, going back to lojbab's words of li'i/du'u. It's the first time I 
see a gismu that allows several distinct NU for one place. Do we have other 
brivla that can accept several NU ?

 

> morji is NOT restricted to du'u.  The parenthetical use in the gismu list 
>> is NOT a restriction (and indeed there aren't really ANY restrictions so 
>> long as it is grammatical - the semantics of lojban has not been formally 
>> defined).
>>
> You may say that, but this type analysis is part of the way that the 
> language, as I've seen it in the last few years, has evolved. Evolved 
> restriction is not new to natlangs, why should it be new to conlangs?
>
>> One can claim, I think somewhat arbitrarily), that memorizing a quote is 
>> a different sort of memory than a fact or an episode.  If so, one might 
>> make lujvo based on morji to distinguish the presumably different memory 
>> types of facts, quotes, and episodes, and define the place structure of the 
>> lujvo specific to your more restricted meaning.
>>
>> (I think I should note that such specialized and restricted-meaning lujvo 
>> are a type that is not necessarily achievable using jvajvo rules, because 
>> we didn't really build the tools for semantic-rules-based lujvo-making into 
>> the language - the concept of having rules to determine place structures 
>> was an afterthought regularization devised by Nick Nicolas as a result of 
>> his analysis of patterns of how people actually were making lujvo).
>>
> It's been stated already that the problem with going about this way is 
> that the lujvo that you would want to use for this concept have useful 
> jvajvo meanings which are distinct from this concept. "Remembering 
> something about an experience" and "remembering an experience" are both 
> useful ideas which should have separate terms.
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/VNEdH7MtQcYJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


------=_Part_319_12998155.1358399191657
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:34:07 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0=
pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div>&nbsp;Until we know more about how the brain does memory,=
 it seems=20
presumptuous to claim that these are different "concepts" as opposed to=20
different memories.</div></blockquote><div>As gleki has pointed out, there =
is significant evidence that the two actually are different. Also, although=
 it is a small sample, at the time of coming up with this idea several of u=
s (tsani, gleki, and I, possibly others) all realized that our ways of inte=
racting with these types of memories were significantly different, and that=
 this seemed to be responsible for several experiences with memory. For exa=
mple, I remarked that I remember certain concepts in mathematics in a way m=
ore similar to how I remember experiences than to how I remember other fact=
s, and that these memories are inevitably more permanent and vivid than the=
ir counterparts. gleki remarked that he had a brief epiphany of the importa=
nce of this concept before quickly losing it to the lack of a word for it i=
n his native language.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks for=
 dragging me into your team of insurgents zo'o. Honestly, it's not so easy =
for me to catch the meaning of this new gismu, BUT (!) periodically I start=
 feeling the meaning of this new word. Probably starting using this word ca=
n help me and others fully understand the difference between morji and this=
 new one. And therefore get rid of polysemy of morji in our minds. <b>Or ma=
y be prove this concept wrong.</b></div><div><br></div><div>However, going =
back to lojbab's words of li'i/du'u. It's the first time I see a gismu that=
 allows several distinct NU for one place. Do we have other brivla that can=
 accept several NU ?</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div>
</div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">morji is NOT restri=
cted to du'u. &nbsp;The parenthetical use in the gismu list is NOT a restri=
ction (and indeed there aren't really ANY restrictions so long as it is gra=
mmatical - the semantics of lojban has not been formally defined).<br>
</blockquote><div>You may say that, but this type analysis is part of the w=
ay that the language, as I've seen it in the last few years, has evolved. E=
volved restriction is not new to natlangs, why should it be new to conlangs=
?<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">
One can claim, I think somewhat arbitrarily), that memorizing a quote is a =
different sort of memory than a fact or an episode. &nbsp;If so, one might =
make lujvo based on morji to distinguish the presumably different memory ty=
pes of facts, quotes, and episodes, and define the place structure of the l=
ujvo specific to your more restricted meaning.<br>

<br>
(I think I should note that such specialized and restricted-meaning lujvo a=
re a type that is not necessarily achievable using jvajvo rules, because we=
 didn't really build the tools for semantic-rules-based lujvo-making into t=
he language - the concept of having rules to determine place structures was=
 an afterthought regularization devised by Nick Nicolas as a result of his =
analysis of patterns of how people actually were making lujvo).<br>
</blockquote><div>It's been stated already that the problem with going abou=
t this way is that the lujvo that you would want to use for this concept ha=
ve useful jvajvo meanings which are distinct from this concept. "Rememberin=
g something about an experience" and "remembering an experience" are both u=
seful ideas which should have separate terms.<br>
<br>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br></div></div><br>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban/-/VNEdH7MtQcYJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/VN=
EdH7MtQcYJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



------=_Part_319_12998155.1358399191657--