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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:05:36 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] request for a new gismu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_memory
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On Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:42:36 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:06 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:34:07 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>>>
>>>  Until we know more about how the brain does memory, it seems 
>>>> presumptuous to claim that these are different "concepts" as opposed to 
>>>> different memories.
>>>>
>>> As gleki has pointed out, there is significant evidence that the two 
>>> actually are different. Also, although it is a small sample, at the time of 
>>> coming up with this idea several of us (tsani, gleki, and I, possibly 
>>> others) all realized that our ways of interacting with these types of 
>>> memories were significantly different, and that this seemed to be 
>>> responsible for several experiences with memory. For example, I remarked 
>>> that I remember certain concepts in mathematics in a way more similar to 
>>> how I remember experiences than to how I remember other facts, and that 
>>> these memories are inevitably more permanent and vivid than their 
>>> counterparts. gleki remarked that he had a brief epiphany of the importance 
>>> of this concept before quickly losing it to the lack of a word for it in 
>>> his native language.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for dragging me into your team of insurgents zo'o. Honestly, it's 
>> not so easy for me to catch the meaning of this new gismu, BUT (!) 
>> periodically I start feeling the meaning of this new word. Probably 
>> starting using this word can help me and others fully understand the 
>> difference between morji and this new one. And therefore get rid of 
>> polysemy of morji in our minds. *Or may be prove this concept wrong.*
>>
>> However, going back to lojbab's words of li'i/du'u. It's the first time I 
>> see a gismu that allows several distinct NU for one place. Do we have other 
>> brivla that can accept several NU ?
>>
>
> Yes. All of them, in every place, although the type of abstraction- or 
> even using an abstraction at all- may not make sense, like with {lo nu 
> sutra cu klama lo si'o plise}. The listed NU in certain gismu definitions 
> aren't the /only/ allowable ones, they're just that ones that .lojbab. saw 
> were being /used/ in those places when he was going through the definitions.
>

Oh sorry for not being clear enough. It's the first time I see a gismu in 
which changing type of NU clearly changes the meaning without not losing 
sense.
Could you please provide other useful examples of different meaningful 
translations of brivla that differ in type of NU?
 

 
>
>>  morji is NOT restricted to du'u.  The parenthetical use in the gismu 
>>>> list is NOT a restriction (and indeed there aren't really ANY restrictions 
>>>> so long as it is grammatical - the semantics of lojban has not been 
>>>> formally defined).
>>>>
>>> You may say that, but this type analysis is part of the way that the 
>>> language, as I've seen it in the last few years, has evolved. Evolved 
>>> restriction is not new to natlangs, why should it be new to conlangs?
>>>
>>>> One can claim, I think somewhat arbitrarily), that memorizing a quote 
>>>> is a different sort of memory than a fact or an episode.  If so, one might 
>>>> make lujvo based on morji to distinguish the presumably different memory 
>>>> types of facts, quotes, and episodes, and define the place structure of the 
>>>> lujvo specific to your more restricted meaning.
>>>>
>>>> (I think I should note that such specialized and restricted-meaning 
>>>> lujvo are a type that is not necessarily achievable using jvajvo rules, 
>>>> because we didn't really build the tools for semantic-rules-based 
>>>> lujvo-making into the language - the concept of having rules to determine 
>>>> place structures was an afterthought regularization devised by Nick Nicolas 
>>>> as a result of his analysis of patterns of how people actually were making 
>>>> lujvo).
>>>>
>>> It's been stated already that the problem with going about this way is 
>>> that the lujvo that you would want to use for this concept have useful 
>>> jvajvo meanings which are distinct from this concept. "Remembering 
>>> something about an experience" and "remembering an experience" are both 
>>> useful ideas which should have separate terms.
>>>
>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>>>
>>>  -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "lojban" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/VNEdH7MtQcYJ.
>>
>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com<javascript:>
>> .
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
>> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>

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------=_Part_319_22274734.1358402736106
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<br><br>On Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:42:36 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, J=
an 16, 2013 at 10:06 PM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascri=
pt:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"9R7rzxooPZsJ">gleki.is...@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br><br>On Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:34:07 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0=
pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"=
gmail_quote">
<div>&nbsp;Until we know more about how the brain does memory, it seems=20
presumptuous to claim that these are different "concepts" as opposed to=20
different memories.</div></blockquote><div>As gleki has pointed out, there =
is significant evidence that the two actually are different. Also, although=
 it is a small sample, at the time of coming up with this idea several of u=
s (tsani, gleki, and I, possibly others) all realized that our ways of inte=
racting with these types of memories were significantly different, and that=
 this seemed to be responsible for several experiences with memory. For exa=
mple, I remarked that I remember certain concepts in mathematics in a way m=
ore similar to how I remember experiences than to how I remember other fact=
s, and that these memories are inevitably more permanent and vivid than the=
ir counterparts. gleki remarked that he had a brief epiphany of the importa=
nce of this concept before quickly losing it to the lack of a word for it i=
n his native language.<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Thanks for dragging me into yo=
ur team of insurgents zo'o. Honestly, it's not so easy for me to catch the =
meaning of this new gismu, BUT (!) periodically I start feeling the meaning=
 of this new word. Probably starting using this word can help me and others=
 fully understand the difference between morji and this new one. And theref=
ore get rid of polysemy of morji in our minds. <b>Or may be prove this conc=
ept wrong.</b></div>
<div><br></div><div>However, going back to lojbab's words of li'i/du'u. It'=
s the first time I see a gismu that allows several distinct NU for one plac=
e. Do we have other brivla that can accept several NU ?</div>
</blockquote><div><br>Yes. All of them, in every place, although the type o=
f abstraction- or even using an abstraction at all- may not make sense, lik=
e with {lo nu sutra cu klama lo si'o plise}. The listed NU in certain gismu=
 definitions aren't the /only/ allowable ones, they're just that ones that =
.lojbab. saw were being /used/ in those places when he was going through th=
e definitions.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Oh sorry for=
 not being clear enough. It's the first time I see a gismu in which changin=
g type of NU clearly changes the meaning without not losing sense.</div><di=
v>Could you please provide other useful examples of different meaningful tr=
anslations of brivla that differ in type of NU?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
</div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">morji is NOT restri=
cted to du'u. &nbsp;The parenthetical use in the gismu list is NOT a restri=
ction (and indeed there aren't really ANY restrictions so long as it is gra=
mmatical - the semantics of lojban has not been formally defined).<br>

</blockquote><div>You may say that, but this type analysis is part of the w=
ay that the language, as I've seen it in the last few years, has evolved. E=
volved restriction is not new to natlangs, why should it be new to conlangs=
?<br>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">
One can claim, I think somewhat arbitrarily), that memorizing a quote is a =
different sort of memory than a fact or an episode. &nbsp;If so, one might =
make lujvo based on morji to distinguish the presumably different memory ty=
pes of facts, quotes, and episodes, and define the place structure of the l=
ujvo specific to your more restricted meaning.<br>


<br>
(I think I should note that such specialized and restricted-meaning lujvo a=
re a type that is not necessarily achievable using jvajvo rules, because we=
 didn't really build the tools for semantic-rules-based lujvo-making into t=
he language - the concept of having rules to determine place structures was=
 an afterthought regularization devised by Nick Nicolas as a result of his =
analysis of patterns of how people actually were making lujvo).<br>

</blockquote><div>It's been stated already that the problem with going abou=
t this way is that the lujvo that you would want to use for this concept ha=
ve useful jvajvo meanings which are distinct from this concept. "Rememberin=
g something about an experience" and "remembering an experience" are both u=
seful ideas which should have separate terms.<br>

<br>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br></div></div><br>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br>
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lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu=
 do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

</blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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OOo1ND-moJ</a>.<br />=20
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