Received: from mail-qa0-f58.google.com ([209.85.216.58]:60289)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDBPJRUZSQARBSPM5ODQKGQEM7LFJGI@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TweFl-0001sj-O5; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:39:10 -0800
Received: by mail-qa0-f58.google.com with SMTP id bv4sf2604856qab.23
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:51 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=HEFQ74pQbtcL5p+LWe/P6jG2K2dyAc1SfFg0H/DxSrM=;
        b=ahFW7GxPr9o1prBHpUTXa3JuHQtCUibucTd67yExnOizpD4SAjZRGd2RT6/8unh6T+
         3nN2kREcmnZoHnJimHUlJiAz7D/1F81s6q7CrfC0StopyJpKRnqzd3cTt3H1qNsrH/7W
         /b8yoPtSUziO6zyhF/3W5ZT+9MJg66R/Xq6BXz4/iibjzIIUdCddjJ2+M7AyxUx0kA4x
         50tu/M1xu4mDagrzBC2ROWs/SaWnhtc82OnM/QRH9r+K9+S1MU09YcSeY+KGrWOJb+3y
         UIvS88gshDWuCY6C3gZrrbbLmIrJVkTtoM9C3WMF0SZEiAeRgZULoF8Xlles+HhBRG4U
         6EYg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=HEFQ74pQbtcL5p+LWe/P6jG2K2dyAc1SfFg0H/DxSrM=;
        b=mxGzY3tMmOrrLQBK6x1xatn1L2DVQcZA8MD9fEXoq97CxiX0KRbcwtkzPBKBp8oGms
         x0JMCQCewnm67nwot167/zdUWkbiME0oQdqc0zE6sYaT8r1TXbPWPbrbs8eJZo2MJKnw
         B3rGId4aXuckBVvuEs5c3B4j934j/lD2atIGaILCj0DGtrlBeK+hiA2MXBTavVYG9Igz
         vJvmcl1ADy6FDK8ldWJXjcX7fU621iDnGEp9ria1lFc8b6aZAB6Bc+eghlLwD13EONmE
         k2Cip/flD3p4+6t8mprIo+OFtx4DPZ3KaiQtTpwW0QY5irQPN0HGZCJI8sM58G0TaA4c
         qZfg==
X-Received: by 10.49.35.77 with SMTP id f13mr2835346qej.4.1358624330881;
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:50 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.49.35.73 with SMTP id f9ls2873800qej.27.gmail; Sat, 19 Jan
 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.58.45.134 with SMTP id n6mr6168204vem.35.1358624329677;
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.58.45.134 with SMTP id n6mr6168203vem.35.1358624329665;
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-vc0-f174.google.com (mail-vc0-f174.google.com [209.85.220.174])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d17si2506714vdt.1.2013.01.19.11.38.49
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.174;
Received: by mail-vc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id n11so2670169vch.19
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.52.74.227 with SMTP id x3mr12354397vdv.80.1358624329480;
 Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.221.4.131 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:38:49 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <bd6d5b4c-ae73-474b-9064-6e383ce74a0a@googlegroups.com>
References: <24690760-59a0-45a7-af33-5e19b2c1f3b2@googlegroups.com>
	<1481744.AqtQyu1zLl@caracal>
	<bd6d5b4c-ae73-474b-9064-6e383ce74a0a@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 14:38:49 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+gZtg+UV26oHOsm=BQKd_7+wkL3_-RJUC+F3gvagnQncSMhEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] fu'ivla gerna
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com;       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3071cece8ab96104d3a9602e
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--20cf3071cece8ab96104d3a9602e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:38 AM, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:

>   .i zoi .lob. srpmla'u .lob. na go'i fo vy. .e cy.
>
While I know what you meant, this doesn't say what you meant in either of
the two common variations of {na}. CLL-na moves naku to the front;
"standard idiom"-na amounts to a naku in the same place. In either case the
negation scopes over the {.e}, which inverts it, resulting in "It's not
true that ... for both V and C", i.e. "It's false that ...for at least one
of V or C". You wanted either {.a} instead of {.e}, terminal {naku}, or (if
you're into experimental cmavo) {na'ei} in the same place as your {na}.

.i mi xenru lo nu lo se cusku na srana lo se casnu .i mi'e la latro'a mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--20cf3071cece8ab96104d3a9602e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:38 AM, iesk <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pa.fae@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">pa.fae@gmx.=
de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0 .i zoi .lob. srpmla&#39;u .lob. na go&#39;i fo vy. .e cy.<br></blockquo=
te><div>While I know what you meant, this doesn&#39;t say what you meant in=
 either of the two common variations of {na}. CLL-na moves naku to the fron=
t; &quot;standard idiom&quot;-na amounts to a naku in the same place. In ei=
ther case the negation scopes over the {.e}, which inverts it, resulting in=
 &quot;It&#39;s not true that ... for both V and C&quot;, i.e. &quot;It&#39=
;s false that ...for at least one of V or C&quot;. You wanted either {.a} i=
nstead of {.e}, terminal {naku}, or (if you&#39;re into experimental cmavo)=
 {na&#39;ei} in the same place as your {na}.<br>
<br>.i mi xenru lo nu lo se cusku na srana lo se casnu .i mi&#39;e la latro=
&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--20cf3071cece8ab96104d3a9602e--