Received: from mail-qe0-f64.google.com ([209.85.128.64]:39948)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDBPJRUZSQARBEHB5WDQKGQEO55IJWY@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TwmOd-0003dc-IN; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:50 -0800
Received: by mail-qe0-f64.google.com with SMTP id 7sf33662qea.9
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:33 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=Vc2obyxn9BDeeNEciQZc9/Mk7a6oM0s6fWpGNtfDWKM=;
        b=XtmqsETFIyxTBBXhc5kHbsXZ/Kpeeylw9HiVR1DnmsJNmyEw7Bjb9k2Vjv1YZQqJc3
         1CPG3j6Gv50YBet9uRAAkGbt5A07+Skmh5Zxc+J/DcgMSSTAelOu6FS4oO+xRuP31Xt9
         gJ/7JHhBId46EzX295QvCGsoVKCvI6bK4LcIjs48qge+nB9FRLEHnr7S4FR9QZHAqYCs
         QxkuXVVHbbAegyrqigcxT8ta/zESwrS+SXFA4VajXC4Dytp0k106QItJm1Tuz8mBqLrG
         FSdvDLGsW8Ihi62etm9q2yR3B4zLKrUkH01WKk0X3PP0wXnNE6QCxUzYCs6PjkOKsyDa
         stzw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=Vc2obyxn9BDeeNEciQZc9/Mk7a6oM0s6fWpGNtfDWKM=;
        b=OYFhERrp1pJUlyfqL3q+xCkfwacA76GR5+yQlBHaIMbJzI1Jor2KxB7RjWubiifeUn
         3LM45j5j7Ik0C+RjOV/berPlEgPxPARVDMv0J5fP+XGRL3jh6mtK7N4W+ZPO8vWERPdC
         3W8KPMVkJqs9otzmK/+hEQB6QG1rsodMIQvpx6ITKo403gllsBdn045h8uoj4DZIJXoD
         YbH6LQNTf1DXROmnFhUyK/Z3/FZZ8wwCZ/DVkxCC9+BPoMU5V7uB9U3TOFo57OXZ2cFw
         2VuOKYo/wwDjbMIpNm7NqcPk6xgfTqiKgg3OKxACgaHf7dEFbPuRkDugYOZfe3UIcz/V
         5Kxg==
X-Received: by 10.49.96.196 with SMTP id du4mr2983047qeb.37.1358655632929;
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.49.48.48 with SMTP id i16ls2455985qen.89.gmail; Sat, 19 Jan
 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.58.191.68 with SMTP id gw4mr6704430vec.20.1358655632168;
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.58.191.68 with SMTP id gw4mr6704429vec.20.1358655632148;
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-vb0-f48.google.com (mail-vb0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u2si2767500vdi.2.2013.01.19.20.20.32
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.48;
Received: by mail-vb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id fc21so4761607vbb.7
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.52.98.67 with SMTP id eg3mr13226196vdb.59.1358655632035;
 Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.221.4.131 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:20:31 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <1358652960.20576.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEimHHBpkZ_8LX6sHDDOOsuCm+KMWzaUnnsk79F4shSH4+QGvA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJHgu=-=8f6a9Mq7L_581PfAq0RLRf4_4ZR2uwgsT_32X3WvgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1358652960.20576.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 23:20:31 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgJ2MAp6v8Nc+ONB-5eMyXsw=F4pG6gwdu_QdGx5Om=syA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] da and existence
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com;       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d04d251cebb04d3b0aa05
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--20cf307d04d251cebb04d3b0aa05
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I agree; it is absurd to claim that everything in the universe of discourse
exists without some other qualification. Doing so either amounts to an
outright contradictory definition of universe of discourse (if there's
something we're talking about in the present context, it's in the universe
of discourse, no matter how you try to formalize that notion) or restricts
the language to talking about reality, which borders on uselessness.

{ro da zasti fi de} is a more interesting statement. Note that I read {ro
da zasti} in isolation as {ro da zasti fi zu'i}, for pragmatics.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:36 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

> No, I don't think so.  At least not necessarily.  The UD can be fairly
> small  (and how can large in comparison with infinity be exaggeration
> neutral?)  And certainly, not everything exists.  Unicorns don't for this
> discourse at least.  And neither does Sherlocke Holmes (any of him).
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com>
> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 19, 2013 9:13 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] da and existence
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> In another thread there were comments that led me to believe that {da}
> must refer to a thing that actually exists.
>
>
> .i sampu .i .ia cai zo'o nai ro da zasti .i lo munje cu barda fi lo cimni
> ba'u cu'i
>
> mi'e la stela selckiku
>
> mu'o
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
>
>   --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--20cf307d04d251cebb04d3b0aa05
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree; it is absurd to claim that everything in the universe of discourse=
 exists without some other qualification. Doing so either amounts to an out=
right contradictory definition of universe of discourse (if there&#39;s som=
ething we&#39;re talking about in the present context, it&#39;s in the univ=
erse of discourse, no matter how you try to formalize that notion) or restr=
icts the language to talking about reality, which borders on uselessness.<b=
r>
<br>{ro da zasti fi de} is a more interesting statement. Note that I read {=
ro da zasti} in isolation as {ro da zasti fi zu&#39;i}, for pragmatics.<br>=
<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:36 PM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif">No, I don&#39;t think so.=A0 At lea=
st not necessarily.=A0 The UD can be fairly small=A0 (and how can large in =
comparison with infinity be exaggeration neutral?)=A0 And certainly, not ev=
erything exists.=A0 Unicorns don&#39;t for this discourse at least.=A0 And =
neither does Sherlocke Holmes (any of him).=A0 <br>
<div><span></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:times ne=
w roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-family:tim=
es new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font =
face=3D"Arial"> <hr size=3D"1">
  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Stela Selckiku &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:selckiku@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">selckiku@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>=
 <br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday,
 January 19, 2013 9:13 PM<div class=3D"im"><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] da and existence<br> </div></font=
> </div> <br>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div>On Sat, =
Jan 19, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Luke Bergen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" href=3D"mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lukeabergen@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">In another thread there were comments that led me to believe that =
{da} must refer to a thing that actually exists.=A0</blockquote>

<div><br></div><div>.i sampu .i .ia cai zo&#39;o nai ro da zasti .i lo munj=
e cu barda fi lo cimni ba&#39;u cu&#39;i=A0</div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39=
;e la stela selckiku=A0</div><div><br></div><div>

mu&#39;o=A0</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"h5">



-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bun=
subscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com</a>.<br>

For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></div><br><br> </div> </div>  </div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"=
><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bun=
subscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com</a>.<br>

For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--20cf307d04d251cebb04d3b0aa05--