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On Monday, January 28, 2013 2:24:47 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 10:43:54PM -0800, la gleki wrote: 
> > On Monday, January 28, 2013 9:07:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: 
> > > On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> 
> > > > wrote: 
> > > 
> > >> This should be done with {bi'u nai} instead, if the explicitness is 
> > >> desired. It is somewhat of a shame that {lo bi'u nai} is as long as 
> it is. 
>
> "the not-newly-introduced thing that brodas" can still refer to any number 
> of different individuals /in the universe of discourse/, not just the one 
> you're talking about in this specific sentence. {lo bi'u nai} has its 
> uses, but that's not one of them in my opinion. 
>

Yes, but given that there is only one such object in the previous discourse 
 this {bi'unai} refers only to it.


> > > I disagree. {le} is the specific article, he's referring to a specific 
> > > thing. This is the reason why {le} exists. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Even if so it has nothing to do with {bi'unai}. "specific thing" might 
> > solve the problem of "any" 
>
> Did you read the last discussion on that? No it does not fix "any", 
> whatever this is supposed to mean. 
>

{lo} does  refer to "any" objects. But this range can be narrowed down to 
an appropriate interval mostly by using UI, VA etc.


> > but not the problem of the definite article in 
> > the meaning of referring to things previously mentioned. 
>
> That's exactly what KOhA and one letter abbreviations are for. 
>

Yes, I agree. KOhA and letter abbreviations do solve the problem.
 

> If you don't like these, {le} is the best choice you have in my opinion 
> as it is rather close to at least the latter one. (if you think KOhAs do 
> not need to get defined with {goi} also to KOhA) 
>

> I really don't understand this whole movement that tries to prohibit {le}. 
>

Probably because {le} has shown clear polysemy.
It was used for things like {le cribe} for teddy-bears as opposed to {lo 
cribe} which were supposed to be Ursidae mammals.
That's why selpa'i proposed moving {voi} to UI to have a cmavo for 
"described objects".
We can free {le} from this extraneous meaning. And ok, I'll use it.

But if {le} refers to apples that one has in mind who is that "one" who has 
them in mind? Is it the speaker? Then it sounds like an attitudinal.
And next. If {le} refers to things that I have in mind why should we 
suppose that this thing has been previously mentioned?
In this case we have to say {le bi'unai} anyway which will save no 
syllables although may be indeed more precise in meaning.


For me, {le} is a realization of Keith Donnellan's purely referential use 
> of 
> definite descriptions and it is perfectly justified in its existance. 
> You don't need to state each time you refer to an individual that he 
> brodas 
> one way or the other. It's absolutely enough to state it ones in the 
> beginning. 
> Sadly, this concept is not much used in NatLangs in my experience. 
>
> v4hn 
>

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------=_Part_85_9136310.1359373609883
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<br><br>On Monday, January 28, 2013 2:24:47 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 10:43:54PM -0800=
, la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; On Monday, January 28, 2013 9:07:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt; On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Ian Johnson &lt;<a>blindb...=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This should be done with {bi'u nai} instead, if the expli=
citness is=20
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; desired. It is somewhat of a shame that {lo bi'u nai} is =
as long as it is.
<br>
<br>"the not-newly-introduced thing that brodas" can still refer to any num=
ber
<br>of different individuals /in the universe of discourse/, not just the o=
ne
<br>you're talking about in this specific sentence. {lo bi'u nai} has its
<br>uses, but that's not one of them in my opinion.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but given that there is only one =
such object in the previous discourse &nbsp;this {bi'unai} refers only to i=
t.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0=
;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; &gt; I disagree. {le} is the specific article, he's referring to a=
 specific=20
<br>&gt; &gt; thing. This is the reason why {le} exists.
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Even if so it has nothing to do with {bi'unai}. "specific thing" m=
ight=20
<br>&gt; solve the problem of "any"
<br>
<br>Did you read the last discussion on that? No it does not fix "any",
<br>whatever this is supposed to mean.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>{lo} does &nbsp;refer to "any" objects=
. But this range can be narrowed down to an appropriate interval mostly by =
using UI, VA etc.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; but not the problem of the definite article in=20
<br>&gt; the meaning of referring to things previously mentioned.
<br>
<br>That's exactly what KOhA and one letter abbreviations are for.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I agree. KOhA and letter abbrevia=
tions do solve the problem.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left: 1ex;">If you don't like these, {le} is the best choice you ha=
ve in my opinion
<br>as it is rather close to at least the latter one. (if you think KOhAs d=
o
<br>not need to get defined with {goi} also to KOhA)
<br></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br>I really =
don't understand this whole movement that tries to prohibit {le}.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Probably because {le} has shown clear =
polysemy.</div><div>It was used for things like {le cribe} for teddy-bears =
as opposed to {lo cribe} which were supposed to be Ursidae mammals.</div><d=
iv>That's why selpa'i proposed moving {voi} to UI to have a cmavo for "desc=
ribed objects".<br></div><div>We can free {le} from this extraneous meaning=
. And ok, I'll use it.</div><div><br></div><div>But if {le} refers to apple=
s that one has in mind who is that "one" who has them in mind? Is it the sp=
eaker? Then it sounds like an attitudinal.</div><div>And next. If {le} refe=
rs to things that I have in mind why should we suppose that this thing has =
been previously mentioned?</div><div>In this case we have to say {le bi'una=
i} anyway which will save no syllables although may be indeed more precise =
in meaning.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left: 1ex;">For me, {le} is a realization of Keith Donnellan's purely =
referential use of
<br>definite descriptions and it is perfectly justified in its existance.
<br>You don't need to state each time you refer to an individual that he br=
odas
<br>one way or the other. It's absolutely enough to state it ones in the be=
ginning.
<br>Sadly, this concept is not much used in NatLangs in my experience.
<br>
<br>v4hn
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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