Received: from mail-bk0-f56.google.com ([209.85.214.56]:64651)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDUNF3UDXIJBBOPITGEAKGQE6MTUM3I@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TzoB8-0002nR-WC; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:51:27 -0800
Received: by mail-bk0-f56.google.com with SMTP id j5sf1225483bkw.1
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:51:07 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf:date:from
         :to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type
         :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe;
        bh=a0MUzoFulCdOmAFZHMtX/rkKVz7JmKy35J51JW9ybnk=;
        b=D9XC+IfvgXMEeK8Du6MH0OpD3Vd0mqeZJkaDqoR9ZeMIfclGKlQi9+ma/cngSDbs3K
         hBQWUQ/4pHH90kwFIHuJmVn/zmlzSpqPjHwfzdCV5YuT6Hbu0CVukhRZVk0kyrQYmt1k
         UEhO/+J7IxxHYyxrv+zlUzCUxxm0RiCUGwW1+xCmDPL2cD3ybLVJusgJ/RyyjM3jNXUc
         dN4iCxA7SzcPMXuVjImRnZIEbsHriwFw2Sv4aXfiHSFyMHFCn90JDU0ZrHUG8P7WwgGP
         yN0PWUTeFWrD4n4WV/ywNNJNSCD0a9UDGis8zy4zVZBvBuS/TRI+jcC+zOium+CPFJJY
         mOuA==
X-Received: by 10.180.84.200 with SMTP id b8mr614248wiz.19.1359377467016;
        Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:51:07 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.180.108.135 with SMTP id hk7ls865456wib.40.gmail; Mon, 28 Jan
 2013 04:51:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.14.220.131 with SMTP id o3mr2133472eep.3.1359377465479;
        Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:51:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.14.220.131 with SMTP id o3mr2133470eep.3.1359377465458;
        Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dd17822.kasserver.com (dd17822.kasserver.com. [85.13.138.119])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z44si2775502een.0.2013.01.28.04.51.05
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 85.13.138.119 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of me@v4hn.de) client-ip=85.13.138.119;
Received: from samsa (brln-4dbc2e1b.pool.mediaWays.net [77.188.46.27])
	by dd17822.kasserver.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 712C586025B
	for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:51:04 +0100 (CET)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:51:03 +0100
From: v4hn <me@v4hn.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Aesop's "The Wolf and the Crane"
Message-ID: <20130128125103.GI20956@samsa.fritz.box>
References: <CAAQ0imM-tUgooX3vBHRPfA3QSGLoZLreY0n4LLm6t4KtJOgeag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQ0imM6e4hcE0AYFUaeMy65xUZ037B4vwGNy0B0Vgr8jXM4Kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1696426.fuu6unn560@caracal>
 <CAAQ0imNg-PrsFjqYAOAhZcBCMSzH9RkkkuVNfY8ghpXF9fGapA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+gZtgKo+s5M_4ySOdVd9kqOU=0p-8JHbD4WchOBYidGqnRGYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKwHj3NZLmD8h2YWyFK9zAadWGtXvZ2cf170hY=+BSL97AF-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <47fd82fb-126d-41a3-aa58-fca6ab2fdbde@googlegroups.com>
 <20130128102447.GH20956@samsa.fritz.box>
 <567c078e-13fa-45c1-b22d-c57a45eed8af@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EVh9lyqKgK19OcEf"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <567c078e-13fa-45c1-b22d-c57a45eed8af@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: me@v4hn.de
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=neutral
 (google.com: 85.13.138.119 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess
 record for domain of me@v4hn.de) smtp.mail=me@v4hn.de
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /


--EVh9lyqKgK19OcEf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 03:46:49AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> On Monday, January 28, 2013 2:24:47 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:
> > "the not-newly-introduced thing that brodas" can still refer to any num=
ber=20
> > of different individuals /in the universe of discourse/, not just the o=
ne=20
> > you're talking about in this specific sentence. {lo bi'u nai} has its=
=20
> > uses, but that's not one of them in my opinion.=20
> >
>=20
> Yes, but given that there is only one such object in the previous discour=
se=20
>  this {bi'unai} refers only to it.
>=20

I just wanted to point out that this is no general solution.

> > Did you read the last discussion on that? No it does not fix "any",=20
> > whatever this is supposed to mean.=20
> >
>=20
> {lo} does  refer to "any" objects. But this range can be narrowed down to=
=20
> an appropriate interval mostly by using UI, VA etc.

Yes, {lo broda} _refers_ to any object that brodas, but it does not
share the _intensional meaning_ of "any object that brodas"!
{lo broda} refers to specific individuals /in the universe of discourse/
(it might introduce them first). On the other hand "any {broda}" does
not necessarily do that(normally it doesn't). You can say "Any apple is suf=
ficient."
or "Give me any apple" without necessarily refering to a specific apple in =
the UD
or introducing one(John and I have different opinions on the introducing pa=
rt as far
as I can see).

That's part of the current state of discussion on the "any" matter.
You're welcome to discuss this in the appropriate thread.

> > If you don't like these, {le} is the best choice you have in my opinion=
=20
> > as it is rather close to at least the latter one. (if you think KOhAs d=
o=20
> > not need to get defined with {goi} also to KOhA)=20
> > I really don't understand this whole movement that tries to prohibit {l=
e}.=20
>=20
> Probably because {le} has shown clear polysemy.
> It was used for things like {le cribe} for teddy-bears as opposed to {lo=
=20
> cribe} which were supposed to be Ursidae mammals.
> That's why selpa'i proposed moving {voi} to UI to have a cmavo for=20
> "described objects".
> We can free {le} from this extraneous meaning. And ok, I'll use it.

Please elaborate on that (maybe in a new thread).
I don't see any polysemy and I don't see any reason
to move {voi} to UI and I don't know what this would/is supposed to fix.
Also I have the feeling you either didn't understand the last part of my ma=
il
or you ignored it.

By the way: After xorlo {lo cribe} _can_, given a context, refer to a teddy=
-bear,
can't it?

> But if {le} refers to apples that one has in mind who is that "one" who h=
as=20
> them in mind? Is it the speaker? Then it sounds like an attitudinal.

/WHAT/? What kind of reasoning is that? If anything that is related to the
speaker should be UI, then why is {mi} a KOhA and not UI as well polemic-te=
rminator.

> And next. If {le} refers to things that I have in mind why should we=20
> suppose that this thing has been previously mentioned?

We don't. The first {lo broda} could in principle also be {le broda} if you
don't want to assert at all, that the object you're refering to actually
brodas. If you want to do that, you have to use {lo} at least once
or need to say something like {le broda ku broda}.
{le} fixes reference, nothing more, nothing less. Whatever {brivla}
comes after is used to inform the listener/reader on who/what is the refere=
nt.

> In this case we have to say {le bi'unai} anyway which will save no=20
> syllables although may be indeed more precise in meaning.

Normally you don't need to be this precise, but if you want to be... sure.


v4hn

--EVh9lyqKgK19OcEf
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlEGdDcACgkQMBKLZs4+wjwXwQCfbyJTsZgj2FCNFdybj9L0d1ur
WKYAn17pkp+UaGXYc4dRXp/G/E/DHs1B
=E79H
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--EVh9lyqKgK19OcEf--