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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Aesop's "The Wolf and the Crane"
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On Jan 28, 2013 6:50 AM, "v4hn" <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 06:21:33AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:51 AM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
> > > Yes, {lo broda} _refers_ to any object that brodas, but it does not
> > > share the _intensional meaning_ of "any object that brodas"!
> > > {lo broda} refers to specific individuals /in the universe of
discourse/
> > >
> >
> > No it doesn't. {lo} is the generic article. It cannot be specific,
period.
>
> If it doesn't refer to(and maybe introduce) a specific element _in the
universe
> of discourse_(I'm not talking about the actual world) then there would be
no
> way you could reference that same element later on. Not even by KOhA/BY.
> Because then, there would not _be_ anything you could refer to. period.
> You're welcome to explain yourself in more than one sentence and with
> at least one example.

UD or IRL, it amounts to the same thing. When you say {lo mlatu}, you
aren't talking about anything specific. It is the generic article because
it is /generic/.

{lo mlatu} means "one or more things which actually are a cat". The only
way that becomes a reference to a specific thing is if context (or the UD,
if you prefer,) limits the reference to a specific referent.

I'm going to assume that when you say specific, you don't mean what I do
when I say specific, because otherwise you're just not making any sense.

When I say "specific", I mean "a particular instance of X, wherein X is the
subject of discussion, such as 'cats'."

> I still think some people should write a paper on usage and meaning of
> {le} and {lo}, so we would have something specific to discuss instead of
> listening over and over again to the same arguments until one side goes
> to sleep...
>
>
> v4hn

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<p dir="ltr"><br>
On Jan 28, 2013 6:50 AM, &quot;v4hn&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:me@v4hn.de">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 06:21:33AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:51 AM, v4hn &lt;<a href="mailto:me@v4hn.de">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, {lo broda} _refers_ to any object that brodas, but it does not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; share the _intensional meaning_ of &quot;any object that brodas&quot;!<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; {lo broda} refers to specific individuals /in the universe of discourse/<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; No it doesn&#39;t. {lo} is the generic article. It cannot be specific, period.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If it doesn&#39;t refer to(and maybe introduce) a specific element _in the universe<br>
&gt; of discourse_(I&#39;m not talking about the actual world) then there would be no<br>
&gt; way you could reference that same element later on. Not even by KOhA/BY.<br>
&gt; Because then, there would not _be_ anything you could refer to. period.<br>
&gt; You&#39;re welcome to explain yourself in more than one sentence and with<br>
&gt; at least one example.</p>
<p dir="ltr">UD or IRL, it amounts to the same thing. When you say {lo mlatu}, you aren&#39;t talking about anything specific. It is the generic article because it is /generic/.</p>
<p dir="ltr">{lo mlatu} means &quot;one or more things which actually are a cat&quot;. The only way that becomes a reference to a specific thing is if context (or the UD, if you prefer,) limits the reference to a specific referent.</p>

<p dir="ltr">I&#39;m going to assume that when you say specific, you don&#39;t mean what I do when I say specific, because otherwise you&#39;re just not making any sense.</p>
<p dir="ltr">When I say &quot;specific&quot;, I mean &quot;a particular instance of X, wherein X is the subject of discussion, such as &#39;cats&#39;.&quot;</p>
<p dir="ltr">&gt; I still think some people should write a paper on usage and meaning of<br>
&gt; {le} and {lo}, so we would have something specific to discuss instead of<br>
&gt; listening over and over again to the same arguments until one side goes<br>
&gt; to sleep...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; v4hn<br>
</p>

<p></p>

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