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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:53:50 +0100
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Aesop translation
From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
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Sorry tsani I've seen those {makau} and {mokau} used around but I should
have missed their introduction. I don't get what a direct+indirect question
is supposed to mean.

As for "unjustified" I will probably go with xorxes suggestion, it is
probably the cleanest way to say it.

Thanks.


On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:23 AM, tsani nicte <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 28, 2013, at 17:40, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I see what you mean about the scalar opposite of {krinu}.  What if I had
> said: {lo broda cu na na selki'u} -> .. is not (not justified)
> > I want to render the double negation.
> >
> > I might also have used {lo nu mi gasnu kei na rincau}  "my doing is not
> lacking-reason".  Maybe this would have been clearer.
> >
>
> {rincau} doesn't really solve the problem, because it's formal definition,
> assuming jvajvo, is going to be {ka ko'a ko'e ce'ai ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u
> krinu ko'e}, which translates into English as "x1 lacks the property of x1
> justifying x2." Now, you have an elided {se}, which is permissible with the
> proviso that the lujvo without the SE be useless. {rincau} with the
> definition I gave *is* useful, I'd say, and you should therefore not elide
> the {se}, I think.
>
> Now, you are allowed, when using ka and du'u abstractions in the formal
> definition, to use {makau} instead of ce'u with the same rules for eliding
> SE. Likewise, I think that the version with the ce'u could also be useful,
> and it is therefore not advisable to define using makau.
>
> Next, if you had decided on using makau, there are some ideas bouncing
> around on what makau really does, and it seems like there some connection
> to {da}. In particular:
> {.i ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u broda makau} ~> {.i ko'a broda noda}
>
> That leads me to agree with xorxes: nonselki'u is the lujvo for the job,
> if you absolutely want to use a lujvo.
>
> If you want to render the double negation without using a lujvo, you could
> use {na} twice, but I think that it'd be more interesting to play around
> with the quantifier:
> .i lo nu mi gasnu cu se krinu naku no da
>
> Finally, and on a different note, instead of {lo nu mi gasnu}, how about
> {lo du'u mi mokau zukte}, which translates to "[The fact that] I did what I
> did."
>
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Sorry tsani I&#39;ve seen those {makau} and {mok=
au} used around but I should have missed their introduction. I don&#39;t ge=
t what a direct+indirect question is supposed to mean.<br><br></div>As for =
&quot;unjustified&quot; I will probably go with xorxes suggestion, it is pr=
obably the cleanest way to say it.<br>
<br></div>Thanks.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:23 AM, tsani nicte <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Jan 28, 2013, at 17:40,=
 Remo Dentato &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com">rdentato@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>

<br>
&gt; I see what you mean about the scalar opposite of {krinu}. =A0What if I=
 had said: {lo broda cu na na selki&#39;u} -&gt; .. is not (not justified)<=
br>
&gt; I want to render the double negation.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I might also have used {lo nu mi gasnu kei na rincau} =A0&quot;my doin=
g is not lacking-reason&quot;. =A0Maybe this would have been clearer.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>{rincau} doesn&#39;t really solve the problem, because it&#39;s forma=
l definition, assuming jvajvo, is going to be {ka ko&#39;a ko&#39;e ce&#39;=
ai ko&#39;a claxu lo ka ce&#39;u krinu ko&#39;e}, which translates into Eng=
lish as &quot;x1 lacks the property of x1 justifying x2.&quot; Now, you hav=
e an elided {se}, which is permissible with the proviso that the lujvo with=
out the SE be useless. {rincau} with the definition I gave *is* useful, I&#=
39;d say, and you should therefore not elide the {se}, I think.<br>

<br>
Now, you are allowed, when using ka and du&#39;u abstractions in the formal=
 definition, to use {makau} instead of ce&#39;u with the same rules for eli=
ding SE. Likewise, I think that the version with the ce&#39;u could also be=
 useful, and it is therefore not advisable to define using makau.<br>

<br>
Next, if you had decided on using makau, there are some ideas bouncing arou=
nd on what makau really does, and it seems like there some connection to {d=
a}. In particular:<br>
{.i ko&#39;a claxu lo ka ce&#39;u broda makau} ~&gt; {.i ko&#39;a broda nod=
a}<br>
<br>
That leads me to agree with xorxes: nonselki&#39;u is the lujvo for the job=
, if you absolutely want to use a lujvo.<br>
<br>
If you want to render the double negation without using a lujvo, you could =
use {na} twice, but I think that it&#39;d be more interesting to play aroun=
d with the quantifier:<br>
.i lo nu mi gasnu cu se krinu naku no da<br>
<br>
Finally, and on a different note, instead of {lo nu mi gasnu}, how about {l=
o du&#39;u mi mokau zukte}, which translates to &quot;[The fact that] I did=
 what I did.&quot;<br>
<br>
.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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