Received: from mail-vc0-f185.google.com ([209.85.220.185]:41580) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1U2lBG-00031d-6A; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:58 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f185.google.com with SMTP id n11sf116930vch.12 for ; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/m4dbttbKDyYFLn7kaBQqjH1n26zJANEcBE5Am/Rb98=; b=a/AEjKxmMtOC8wAZkKVchHkglD1xEcnmv6nwkGT+fD8X6/UVC+62v3ishZwjrwnGUi Qmdnk+ZyXHY59LoXLx2AHFz+VIEY1dIf21zquh5/tjz1xP1Rvdx1k9VfNh4mPTCv7nCV c2Sybu3RiatGlUWBKGno7Q7+dCO7/5JPkjPjb4YJheLxtpqkjyPJ0vwbuxbJ041us9y2 NhB5KwDO4dT3OSL1PpgLYdAWeHE8hBh88r+ldoAR+omJJaJuJtKDIHadrzG55MTTNGTn EJj43ImuqGAbbgW1jjiScDwUFlanaXvEIJKrhoo9BxkBE/sWpbpMDua9r2IAIy3PGpUQ 81hA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/m4dbttbKDyYFLn7kaBQqjH1n26zJANEcBE5Am/Rb98=; b=L94L3P9mn2o1vaJmxxdYOLT9PbYR7rsWS2d62xH4wNTb2sy54RDGU85XIh/o3uWsuw l/HleN2BCgJDzjYbLh/cnWQYIR0JfyZ/0SNhQ932PKH+DfE0zfxF6hvPf6SovonkZ2a9 3+aBI1m73oZApQILBKzUGhYahxElJNpV4etO1st+nAcsyP+6wEnl3QK9+bagI/NySJS8 5hj8RA/EHPt61BeOLYXcJO66oCB3aaGe6pzLQs/WdWN2Xhmk+8gWVojUnL90uwQEh6rD gphiQbKox7Zp0aA/8DBF/V4yknMcmQY7PfCLax9CwQluGijj3zn/mVG3PFw9dKEmvkuF +b4Q== X-Received: by 10.49.58.238 with SMTP id u14mr2131094qeq.13.1360080926544; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.105.134 with SMTP id gm6ls32935qeb.53.gmail; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.136.228 with SMTP id qd4mr8985877veb.37.1360080925742; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.136.228 with SMTP id qd4mr8985876veb.37.1360080925721; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-f176.google.com (mail-ve0-f176.google.com [209.85.128.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b1si5301587vdw.2.2013.02.05.08.15.25 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.128.176; Received: by mail-ve0-f176.google.com with SMTP id cz10so272506veb.35 for ; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.231.196 with SMTP id jr4mr27960400vcb.16.1360080910513; Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.165.196 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Feb 2013 08:15:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:15:10 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau} From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9cdbfad89774004d4fc8369 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --14dae9cdbfad89774004d4fc8369 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful things it should mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker knows the du'u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there's a djuno-du'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pertains to djuno3 in some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete"; {lo se djuno} is not a complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact" semantically either. The latter is redundant, and could just as easily be done with srana. (That is, {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno lo du'u broda kei ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno fi ko'a}). That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets you use jai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain the gimste version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be implemented anyways. mi'e la latro'a mu'o On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wro= te: > On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington > wrote: > > > > {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because the > gimste > > made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a > property > > of the djuno3. > > We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in the > linguistic sense of "raising" > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 is the > semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of > almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of > oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in > this category.) > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --14dae9cdbfad89774004d4fc8369 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful things it shou= ld mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker knows the du&= #39;u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there's a djuno= -du'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pertains to dju= no3 in some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete"; {lo se= djuno} is not a complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact"= semantically either. The latter is redundant, and could just as easily be = done with srana. (That is, {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} = =3D=3D {mi djuno lo du'u broda kei ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be = ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno fi ko'a}).

That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets you use j= ai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain the gimste = version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be implemen= ted anyways.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On S= at, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com= > wrote:
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:= 46 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@g= mail.com> wrote:
>
> {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because th= e gimste
> made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a pr= operty
> of the djuno3.

We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in = the
linguistic sense of "raising"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 i= s the
semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of
almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of
oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in<= br> this category.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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--
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