On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 1:2= 4 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Inrect questions are a problem for English (and fami= liar language) speakers because (since at least I-E days)=A0 one set of pro= nouns get used in a variety of ways.=A0 So "He asked who the murderer = was" involves a clear indirect question, a transform from "He ask= ed, 'Who is the murderer?'", but "He knows who the murder= er is" seems only remotely related to a question, perhaps as "He = know the correct answer to the question 'Who is the murderer?'"= ;.=A0 But then *"He believes who the murder is" (OK in Lojban, of= course: ko'a krinu lo du'u makau morgau) could only mean "He = believes some answer to the question "Who is the murderer?'" = ("He believes he knows ...").=A0 And when we get to something like "They differ in what they wear", the connection t= o questions has virtually disappeared ('They give different answers to = the question 'What do you wear?'"?!)=A0 What they wear is in Lojb= an just lo se dasni (or, in the example, maybe te), similar to "what h= e said" in "He said who the murder was, but I didn't hear wha= t he said".=A0 In this last case, even the first is pretty clearly not= about a question but rather an assertion with the crucial part left out (&= quot;He said '... is the murderer'")=A0 All of this got shifte= d to Lojban (culturally neutral, ma derriere) as an indirect question, rath= er than the several things it might reasonably be -- relatives of=A0 {ce= 9;u} with matter of focus thrown in mainly.=A0 All that being said, {makau}= seems to work in place, despite the incongruities in the semantics.=A0 Of = course, it would be somewhat easier if the use of {ce'u} were not limit= ed to abstraction, so that we could say {lo se dasni be ce'u} without t= hrowing in the irrelevant property marker and fictional indirect question.= =A0 On the other hand, the separation is sometimes needed, since (in English) "He knows who the murderer is&qu= ot; is quite different from "He know the murderer" (something som= eone always says in closed suspect list mysteries).=A0

On a differe= nt topic slightly, the raising of sumti in many cognitive and phatic predic= ates is a terrible mistake, since it opens violations of opacity right and = left, since things mentioned in propositions or properties or what have you= need not be in the world in which the propositions, etc. are referred to, = but sumti raising puts them there: from "John mistakenly believes ther= e are unicorns" one gets in two steps to "There are some things t= hat John mistakenly believes there to be".

From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.c= om
Sent: Saturday, February 2,= 2013 10:06 AM
Subject: = Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}

On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>
> {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it= isn't because the gimste
> made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a pr= operty
> of the djuno3.

We could say that "djuno" is= a sumti raising predicate, in the
linguistic sense of "raising&quo= t;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 i= s the
semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said o= f
almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of
od= dball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not inthis category.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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